Season 2, Episode 8: The Work Beneath the Work — with Dr. Merary Simeon

Mar 4

How burnout shows up when success is fueled by old wounds

What if the hardest part of being “hard at work” isn’t your workload — it’s everything underneath it? In this episode, Dr. Merary Simeon joins Ellen Whitlock Baker to talk about the invisible drivers that fuel ambition: old messages, past pain, and the pressure to prove you’re “enough.” Merary shares the moment she realized her success was being powered by survival mode — and why burnout often shows up when your body finally refuses to keep carrying what your mind has normalized.

Merary walks us through H.E.R.A.C.T., her framework for doing the work beneath the work: Healing, Elevating your mindset, Respect, Achieving confidence, and Transformation. Together, Ellen and Merary unpack why so many of us want to skip the healing step (because it’s personal, messy, and confronting) — and why it’s also the most freeing. They talk about grief, guilt, perfectionism, microaggressions, and the way “constant availability” gets confused with effectiveness… until it becomes burnout in disguise.

They also zoom out to what needs to change inside workplaces — not just inside individuals — including the power of sponsorship, sharing power, and building real relationships across difference. If you’ve ever felt trapped by a job, haunted by what work has taken from you, or stuck in a loop of trying harder while feeling worse, this conversation offers a grounded path forward — and one unforgettable reframe: forgiveness is the hidden reset button.

Tags: Dr. Merary Simeon, Hard at Work Podcast, The Work Beneath the Work, HER ACT Framework, Multicultural Women in Power, Executive Leadership, Inner Work, Burnout Recovery, Healing at Work, Leadership Development, Diversity and Inclusion, Career Transformation, Sponsorship vs Mentorship, Professional Growth, Overcoming Adversity, Work-Life Integration, Women of Color in Leadership, Code AM, Forgiveness as a Reset, Holistic Leadership, Ending Constant Availability, Sharing Power

Chapters:

00:00 – The Work Beneath the Work Dr. Merary introduces the concept of inner healing and doing the "invisible" work required to show up strong in the professional world.

04:00 – Recognizing and Resetting from Burnout A candid discussion on how burnout manifests physically and the importance of being intentional about resetting over and over again.

06:05 – The HER ACT Framework Breaking down the five pillars of Dr. Merary’s research-based framework: Healing, Elevating, Respect, Achieving confidence, and Transformation.

08:10 – Why You Can’t Skip the Healing Step Exploring why healing is the most difficult but freeing stage, and how it provides the clarity needed to regain personal integrity.

17:05 – Reclaiming Power and Prioritizing Family Dr. Merary shares her personal journey of choosing her family over the trap of "constant availability".

22:11 – Building Multicultural Women in Leadership Strategies for closing the pay gap and moving more women of color into executive positions through the "Code AM" framework.

29:30 – The Power of Connection and Community The importance of finding "truth-tellers," mentors, and good friends to ensure you don't isolate yourself during hard times.

35:45 – Sponsorship: Sharing Your Power How leaders can proactively expand their networks and use their influence to create seats at the table for others

Show Notes:

Book: H.E.R.A.C.T. by Dr. Merary Simeon.
Podcast: What Rules!? (Co-hosted by Dr. Merary Simeon, Alisa Manjarrez, and Courtney Copelin).
Website: Merarysimeon.com
LinkedIn: Dr. Merary Simeon
Instagram: @MerarySimeon

Transcript:

I'm Ellen Whitlock Baker, and I'm a 20-year survivor of many different workplaces, from the good to the bad to the ugly. After I escaped the nine to five and struck out on my own as a coach, consultant, and speaker, I wanted to create the Hard at Work podcast to help you navigate and maybe even update the workplace, which wasn't made for most of us. Hard at Work is the show for people who are ready to challenge workplace norms, advocate for themselves and others, and create a more equitable, healthier work culture. In this podcast, we say the quiet part out loud, bringing humor, real talk, and practical strategies so that each episode gives you useful tips and thought-provoking conversations. We'll talk about the things you feel like you can't bring up at work. And together, we'll unlearn toxic norms to help you navigate work without burnout, guilt, or compromising who you are.

If you're tired of feeling like the problem is you, when it's really a broken system, this podcast is your go-to guide for transforming work on your terms. So join me as we get curious, uncomfortable, and real, and hopefully help you have a better time at work. The Hard at Work podcast starts now. This is the Hard at Work podcast.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Hard at Work podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Whitlock-Baker. Today's conversation is one I've been thinking about a lot after we stopped recording, because it goes straight to this question that so many of us are living inside of, whether we name it or not, why am I so exhausted, even when I'm successful? I'm joined by Dr. Merary Simeon, a Fortune 50 HR executive, bestselling author of H.E.R.A.C.T, co-founder of Zera Consulting, and the award-winning host of the What Rules podcast. Merary has spent decades working at the intersection of leadership, culture, and equity, especially focused on advancing multicultural women in the workplace and helping leaders build cultures that don't just perform, but actually sustain people. In this conversation, we talk about what Merary calls the work beneath the work, the invisible drivers behind ambition, burnout, people pleasing and perfectionism. We unpack her H.E.R.A.C.T. framework, which stands for healing, elevating your mindset, respect, achieving confidence and transformation. And why healing is the step so many of us want to skip, even though it's the one that changes everything. This is a conversation about burnout, forgiveness, power, grief, community, and what it really means to lead at work and in your life.

I'm so glad you're here for it. Let's get into it.

Merary Simeon (03:08)

Hello, happy to be here with you today.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:11)

I'm so excited to have you on and you have so much to talk about, a book, a podcast, whole bunch of life experience. ⁓ I'm really excited to get into it. So why don't you tell folks in 60 seconds, what do you want people to know about you as we start to get into this conversation, your Wikipedia entry, if you

Merary Simeon (03:32)

my goodness, my Wikipedia entry would be, I would want people to know that my life's work isn't just about being hard at work. It's also about doing the work beneath the work. Yes, I've been successful in my career as a leader, but what I believe shaped me the most were those moments that no one sees. It's the adversity I had to embrace, the bold moves I had to make, and the decisions to own my power every single day.

the courage to heal, the courage to find community, and to do the work that I do. So for everybody out there, what I want you to know is my name is Dr. Merary Simeon. I am a wife, a mother, a sister, an executive, a Kingdom Work advocate, but all of that happened because I did the work beneath the work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:23)

Yes, and that is the hardest work.

Merary Simeon (04:28)

Everyday struggles, so don't get me wrong. It's not like you do it once and it's over and you're transformed. It's an everyday thing.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:38)

So that inner work, we talk about it so much on this, I think especially for women, especially for mid-career, middle-aged women. I find a lot of times that, I mean, this was true for me. I didn't really know who I was or what I wanted until maybe a couple of years ago. And I know you have some like very...

good examples of how you get there and that's definitely what your book is about. like initially, how can someone even know if they're there or not? ⁓

Dr. Merary Simeon (05:11)

That is such a great question. And just like you, I didn't know that I was there or that I even needed to do that inner work. I actually leverage that, what I would say, past tough experiences to fuel my success. I am not going to be like this. I am not going to let them win. I am not going to do...ABCD or I am going to do all this alone. All that then led to burnout. But at the moment, I was using it as fuel and I no idea. Sadly, it wasn't until I was burnt out and I was tired and I just found myself one day during a communications training that had to speak about, they asked you to do an exercise and I had to go and speak to the coach and present.

And I just started bawling out of nowhere. I started bawling and I'm like, and she's like, my God, are you okay? And I just had a breakdown and I had no idea. But what was powerful is that in this conversation with this coach, what I had to say was, if I remember correctly, I am smart and I had to present on all the things that I was smart and I couldn't say that. And what I came to realize at that moment, was that I had never said that, but all this time I was fueling my success in my education and in my job because years, years, years ago, people had told me that I wasn't smart enough. People had told me that I wasn't good enough. And I had taken that and said, I'm going to prove you wrong. And I had no clue. So I say all that to say, my goal now is to pay it forward for people to kind of that themselves early on in their careers so they don't go through what I went through. So they don't have to find out one day when they're presenting or they're just burned out.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:18)

Isn't that funny how that's how my burnout manifested too was just this like burst of crying in the middle of a musical theater production and I had no idea why. it's your body will not let you get away with burning it out. And whether you get sick or I know people who've ended up in the hospital and know, this horrible thing.

Dr. Merary Simeon (07:40)

For the record, didn't learn my first time. The first time I was working 15 hours a day, just ran myself sick and ended up in the hospital. I went to the doctor and they were like, my God, you're burned out. You're exhausted. I didn't learn the first time.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:00)

And that's okay. It's like, I mean, not okay for your body, like, we also are, we're such perfectionists. We can't be perfect at, you know, getting rid of our brain out either, right?

Dr. Merary Simeon (08:13)

Say that so that the people that are going through that right now or feeling like, my god, I'm losing it or why didn't I learn the first time? It's okay. It's okay. This is an everyday, not struggle, but you have to be intentional about it. So you just have to come back and reset. And that's what I had to do.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:34)

Yeah, over and over. yeah, I love that reminder because it's not, you know, we want to fix things. That's what a lot of us want to do. And this isn't a fixable thing. Let's stay on the individual. But then I also want to talk about how you work with companies too, because I really want to start putting forward ideas and strategies that have changed workplaces ⁓ for the better. And you've definitely done some of that work.

When you think about an individual, have an amazing book. And do you say, Heract? Yes. Yeah, awesome. Will you tell us a little bit about it and what Heract means and what is it in that book? Because I think it's really intended for the individual, Yes. What do you want people to get out of that?

Dr. Merary Simeon (09:07)

Yes. So ⁓ that book was born when I was going for my doctorate and I was writing my thesis. of course, ⁓ my thesis was on women in corporate America. And while I was writing it, I realized that the world didn't need more data. We already had the numbers. We already had the research. But what was missing is that internal look at ourselves and a path to real change. And I can tell you that I clearly heard God's voice say healing. You need healing in order to continue to do all of these things. So I went back to my chair and I'm like, ⁓ my goodness, I've been working on this research for two years, but I need to change it. that's how the framework of her act was born, which stands for healing, elevating your mindset, respect, achieving confidence and transformation. when I went to my chair, you know, they took a few days, actually it was like a week and I'm like, my God, what are they going to say? And they said, you know what? This is very needed in the workplace today. And that's how her act was born. It's really about doing the deep invisible work so that we can all show up strong in the visible world.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:39)

love the acronym, healing, elevation, respect, achieve, confidence, transformation. It's such a good message. How do you lead an individual through that in the book? It's not something you're gonna heal overnight, you know? So like, how would you like this book to be read by somebody? What's the best way to get the most out of the book and the framework?

Dr. Merary Simeon (11:06)

Yes, I would say do not skip the steps. What I would say is the hardest step is the one people want to skip and that's healing because that's very personal. People typically want to go to elevating your mindset because mindset feels familiar and you kind of hear about that a lot in the workplace. I've had the opportunity to present our act in the business place and

when I talk about the healing part of it and not skipping it and doing that internal work, what I would say is the one that people find most difficult, but also find most freeing. And the reason I say that is because it's personal. Healing is where you confront the past pains, the fears, limited beliefs, which we know are running rampant in our minds, probably 90 % of the time.

Dr. Merary Simeon (12:03)

So healing expands through anywhere from limiting beliefs all the way through trauma. There are just some, all these different things that we have to deal with every day. And one of the things that I talk about is even in the everyday life or everyday work is those microaggressions or that continue to happen in the workplace. And forget the workplace when you step out into the world, when you just even go outside the doors. Those are the things that I encourage people to really don't skip that step. I have gotten unsolicited feedback, whether it's on LinkedIn or Instagram or Facebook, and one of them, I remember clearly said, I started reading your book and I got really angry and I stopped. I closed it because I didn't want to go through the healing process. And then they went back and slowly started going through it.

It does work. I've been through it myself. The book is also based on research, ⁓ real stories, and then obviously biblical principles, but it is there for everybody. Whether you want to go on the spiritual side, you want to go on the leadership business side, ⁓ or you want to look at real life stories. So it does have all three anchors there. But I would say don't skip. ⁓ Do the hard work first.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:31)

Yeah. And that's what I loved about it because I'm not a faith spiritual person, and yet I could completely understand how to use any of the sort biblical mentions or ⁓ points that you make. They were absolutely translatable for someone who isn't steeped in that culture or that learning. And I really appreciated that because the heat

It can be really hard, especially when you are not religious, to heal because you don't have a framework necessarily. And if you're, you don't have that or you don't have a community of people who can help you through it or you don't have a therapist, you know, it's a lonely, lonely process. And so I really loved how how it spoke to me, even as someone who didn't necessarily understand all of the

the mentions you have, you what happens when you go and stand in front of a room of executives and talk about healing and feelings and resistance.

Dr. Merary Simeon (14:38)

The room stays quiet. what I can tell you is people are used to hearing a lot about elevating your mindset and transformation, but not in the way that I bring it across because I do bring the healing part first. And then obviously in the workplace, I bring day to day examples of the healing that it can mean something as a microaggression or it could mean something as,

They cut my budget, right? And this is something difficult that I have to go do. And people don't realize that these are seeds of bitterness or anger that get planted in your mind, in your heart. And they flow out. When I talk about it or introduce it in the workplace, it is definitely with that leadership lens and the research lens that is still is, you can't deny it, that healing is needed. And people...

And it's something that people have been hiding. Because one of the questions is, think about one of those things that what has been holding your back or why you are the way you are. Many times we're like, I grew up like that. My mom was like that or my friend or this is what corporate America has done to me. What were those things? What are those triggers? What have you noticed? And when you start answering some of those questions, you realize, this is why I've been doing this. And maybe this is why I need.

healing and sometimes that healing is just about forgiving yourself. It's not even about forgiving your boss or forgiving some trauma. It's about forgiving yourself. It is so hard and we let ourselves down every day more than we people at work or even some of our family members down.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:09)

So hard.

Yeah, we come last a lot of times. How do you start the healing process when you maybe are still in the environment that has caused you harm?

Dr. Merary Simeon (16:33)

One of the things I believe in actually that I talk about is healing brings you clarity. And when you have that clarity, you're able to think better, make the plans that you need to make, but then you also begin to respect yourself. Another thing I talk about is respect. And the quote is from Winston Churchill and it says, have been given a choice between war and dishonor. You have chosen dishonor and you will have war. And while that you're like, what are you thinking about? Like that's kind of harsh. No, you're actually in war with yourself. And that to me is more dangerous than being in a war with, with the people in the workplace or the toxic culture or whatever that is, because you are robbing yourself from that clarity. You are, you are now becoming entrenched in that. Let's say in this, in it could be a toxic culture or whatever, even toxic relationship. And because you haven't started that healing, you're one of the things that I believe everybody wants to be is having integrity, right? And when you break that, kind like, we're not made to go and be bad people. I've truly believed that. And when you start breaking that integrity, something shifts inside of you. And the first thing that I believe we break is that integrity with ourselves. We fall out of integrity with ourselves. And because we don't either give ourselves time to heal or we don't respect each other. But I believe going back to your question, how do they start is you have to start that work. I can tell you I was ⁓ in previous times where I had to go through the healing. I had to forgive some of the leaders because of the things that they said. ⁓

spiritual woman, a woman of faith, I had to pray for them. I had to be like, Lord, please help them see the way. Because that's hard. It is not easy. But I had to start there because at the end of the day, I truly believe is I own my joy, no matter what the situation is. That's my power to know how I show up.

That's my power. And if I let that toxic culture come inside me and dictate how I behave, how I act, it goes against every part of my values.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:04)

And there's this power in realizing that you can resist it from the inside. is, so that's part of the healing process. It's like taking your own integrity back. And we are made to feel very specifically, especially as women. And I know, especially as women of color, we are, you, all of us are made to feel like we can't change anything. Like we have to.

Dr. Merary Simeon (19:07)

Yes!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:32)

We have to be overachievers. have to go 24 hours a day. We can't say no, you know, because we're trying to keep up with an already very unequal situation in the workplace.

What for you was a moment maybe when you realized you could take that power back, where you didn't have to say yes to something that was really against your integrity?

Dr. Merary Simeon (19:54)

at work. For me...

had to have the courage to make hard decisions because here's what I would say, work will have you work 24 seven if you allow it and give it the permission to do so. And for me, healing meant realizing what are those things that I love? What are those things that are important to me? And one of those things that were important to me or that are important to me is my family.

While I was working all those hours, I realized I was missing out on one of the things that I had wished and prayed for and wanted so bad in my life, which was a family and an amazing husband. And I had to decide, did I really work this hard to then not enjoy and lose out on what truly was important to me?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:52)

It's hitting me because the amount of time that we spend thinking our work is the most important thing in our life and missing big moments in our family's life. I am still kicking myself for moments I missed when my daughter was really little because I was working so much.

And part of me was working so hard because I wanted to prove myself and thought that I needed to go above and beyond to do that, especially as a woman. And part of it was because I had way more on my plate than any one person ever should have. And there's this grief that comes from like what I have missed. And how do you reconcile that? That's part of the healing process, but did that happen for you? And how did you manage?

through that without keeping that resentment against the people who might have been part of causing you to work too hard.

Dr. Merary Simeon (21:54)

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And to your point, as part of the healing, one of the things that I learned throughout the process is that constant availability is not effectiveness, it's burnout in disguise. Yes. Of course, after having gone through it twice, I remember my lesson. ⁓ But to answer your question, one of the things that I also realize is that, the workplace or maybe some cultures could...

are toxic, let's just keep it there, or some leaders. But I've also realized that there are great leaders out there, that there are people that are sponsors, and I don't have to do it alone. Being able to find those sponsors at work, being able to find those mentors at work and outside of work, I believe helped me tremendously through the process. Now, to answer your question about how do I feel, as you know,

children are truth tellers and my daughter reminds me every once in a while she's like yeah I remember you were never there when I was young I'm like you're 11 you know and she doesn't say it to hurt me but your limited beliefs will say ⁓ you know you weren't there for her and I had to come to terms I have to number one forgive myself for making those choices which at the time I believed they were the right ones

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:19)

Absolutely.

Dr. Merary Simeon (23:20)

to me is like, I look at it from a business perspective. There are decisions in the business that we made years ago that were the right ones at the time. In today's world, they're not. I feel like now I strategically look at what are those times that she needs me? What are those times, and my son too, that I need to be there? And which ones are those that I don't? I don't always get it perfect. There are times like yesterday, she needed me. And I was like, you know what?

I need to move this around. I need to be there for my daughter today. And those times, I do have a really good communication with the kids on where or what is it that you want me to be in this week.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:01)

I wanted to talk a little bit about the work you do with your consulting business and just really about putting and keeping multicultural women in positions of power. And I love that. And you have a hundred episodes of your podcast, which I'm very like in awe of. So congratulations to that. What do you want to say about that in particular? I mean, we talk a lot on here about the pay gap between not just women and when.

Dr. Merary Simeon (24:20)

Thank you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:30)

women and men, but women of color and women, white women, first of all. And like you were saying at the beginning, we have all the statistics that that's not continuing to get better, but it's still happening, you know, and what are some of the things that you are trying to do through this work with the podcast and consulting that can help more women of color reach those executive level positions?

Dr. Merary Simeon (24:59)

For the podcast specifically, we talk to the multicultural woman. And one of the things that we learned after those hundred episodes is there was a theme. A theme of what are some of those things that the women needed to do. we talked to her about building her confidence, about not doing it alone, about making bold moves, about achieving her vision.

having that community and building what she wants to see. So we talk to her a lot about that. And we call it Code AM at the end of the day because we want to make sure that she has a framework. So that's a lot of what we do in the podcast, but then also when we do speaking engagements and we're talking to her, when we are talking to the leaders in the workplace, we talk about the inclusiveness of culture. And honestly, we...

talk about the two most powerful things you can do in the culture and that is sponsor her and share your power with her. One of the things that we found that it's because of the unconscious bias, it's just what society has shown us throughout the years and it's what's in our mind. So when I talk about multicultural women in positions of power is the more that we're out there when somebody thinks of a CEO,

It is easy for them to sit to think of a CEO as a woman. It is easier for them to think of a CEO as a Latina. It is not something that they just automatically go and think of some, know, of just one person. Right. And it's really being able for them to understand, hey, maybe I don't have enough exposure to women. Maybe I don't have enough exposure to multicultural women, but it's also about building

that inclusiveness of culture. Right? So yes, the work that I do and that we do actually, I believe it helps us see all inclusion. But at the end of the day, when you start doing that work, you realize the numbers, you realize that there's a gap, you realize that there's more out there that I don't know and that I can share my power. I believe the reason

we haven't met those numbers for all women or multicultural women is because the people in power have not realized that they're not sharing their power and that there's a lot of room to share that power. I believe that women haven't gotten to those positions, not because they're not equipped, not because they're not brilliant, but because they haven't been given that opportunity.

And that's a lot of the work that we do. It's really building holistic leaders. Look, when you look at the data, we are already multicultural America. This is the talent that's out there. So there's going to be a gap if as leaders, we don't learn how to lead, develop and grow multicultural ⁓ talent in the workplace today.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:19)

yeah.

Dr. Merary Simeon (28:20)

I would say future proof your organization and that includes really building, growing and developing multicultural talent.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:30)

There's this, and you were just talking about it because it comes down to culture. And from a lot of the conversations I've had on my podcast and people I read and work with, those cultures can be so hostile to women and women of color in particular. What would you say maybe to a woman of color who was listening, who just doesn't feel good in her workplace?

but wants to be a leader, how do you get there from sort of the middle as opposed to, know, if you're a leader and you can make change, fantastic. But when you're kind of in the middle, you know, maybe you have a team and you have some responsibilities, but you're not the executive in charge. How do you get there or how do you maybe create some change in the workplace that you're a part of? Or do you just leave if it's hostile? Sometimes you do, I think, but you know.

Dr. Merary Simeon (29:29)

Sometimes you have to and it's funny, my, ⁓ Alisa was my, in, in my co-partner in the, in our podcast and what rules. One of the things that she talks about is sometimes you just got to go and sometimes you've got to stay and go through the hard stuff so that you could grow from it. So there's, got to really do that internal work and figure out is this, is this one that I need to grow from?

or is this one that I need to leave? And I believe that that work starts from doing the hard work, doing the internal work, to really understanding where am I, how is this impacting me, and what do I need to heal from at the end of the day. But the other piece that we talk to women all the time is what I said is code AM, and it starts with create what you want to see, which is the C.

One of the things that I did while I was inside, it's, what do I want to see? Yes, I want to see women of power, multicultural women in positions of power, but then how do I do that? And I started thinking, okay, these are all the things that I feel are missing out there from a multicultural women perspective. And the first one was that I looked, being an author and writing a book that may have not had anything to do with the workplace, but

Do you know that there's less than, I think it's 3 % women and Latina writers or authors? And I'm like, you know what? I may not be able to make an impact right here, right now, but I'm going to use this time to make an impact someplace else. sometimes I believe there's parts in the workplace where they're not going to be fun. They're not going to be something that I enjoy, but you do need to go through the journey for whatever growth opportunity that may be. And you just got to be clear on what that is.

But then you're gonna have to go outside the workplace to fulfill some other things that you need to do, right? And whether that is community, whether that's mentoring, whatever that looks like for you. But you need to create what you want to see. And if it's in the workplace, the one thing that is the O then on the code AM is own your power. And what do you have the power to do? You have the power to build relationships outside of just your leader. You have the power.

to get mentors. One of the things people think sometimes is like, ⁓ Ellen, can you be my mentor? No, sometimes it's watching and looking and seeing ⁓ who does it best and what is it that they do. And is what Ellen doing something that goes against my values? If it does, then no. But is it something that I could flex? Then I want to talk to Ellen and see how she does it. And it may just be just having a conversation with you about that.

And then the other piece is the deep, right? Don't do it alone. I think a lot of the times we're trying to figure out. Sometimes, and I talk about this on my book, the number one, like this actually helps with depression and with everything is having a good friend. Somebody just to talk to people about, to talk with about the things that you're going through. And I think sometimes we underestimate the power of a good friend.

whether it is inside or outside of work. Now there's a million other things, right? I mentioned sponsor, mentors, all these things, community, not to do alone, but simple, that good friend that you could just talk to. mean, I have my best friends since high school that sometimes I call and I just tell her, tell me how amazing I am. Just tell me. ⁓ And she'll just tell me and I'm like, I don't care, you can lie to me. And there's times that I have to call her and tell her, okay, now I want to hear the real deal.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:08)

I love that.

Dr. Merary Simeon (33:19)

What is it that I'm when you hear this? What is it that I'm doing? What do I need to change? You need to have those people how will tell you the truth and call it, but also the ones that are going to be your cheerleader when you need somebody to be your cheerleader. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times I'm like, I just need to hear positive. And yeah, you do. It's not that you're

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:38)

nice about me. No, it's so true. It's so true. And those people are the safe, like I very viscerally remember the conversation I had with my best friend when I was sitting on the front porch and I was talking to her on the phone. And it was when I said the words out loud, I don't want to do this job anymore. And it was a massive moment for me because I don't think I realized it.

I knew I was unhappy and burned out and whatever, but it sort of made it okay to not wanna do this thing that I'd spent my whole career working towards, right? ⁓ And those are the people, yeah, treasure those people, treasure your friends.

Dr. Merary Simeon (34:23)

You don't realize when before you start the healing process and or when you're going through something and you get depressed or whatever it may be, you kind of pull yourself away. Some people do that and you want to be alone. You don't want to talk to other people because the limited beliefs get in on that. Yeah. Yeah. That's just going to show I'm not strong enough and so on. So best way that I can think of is when we isolate ourselves, we it's like mold. Mold grows in the dark.

So all this isolation, all of this bitterness and all of this inside, all that starts growing. But when we're out there telling people about it, your friends or people close to you that you can trust with the information you're giving, you're letting go of some of those things. And actually that's something women are pretty good at. We just don't do it enough.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:17)

I think we're conditioned to not. mean, I think it's more, it's better for everyone if we are growing silently like mold because then we're not resisting. And resisting is really hard in these cultures that have worked this way for many, many years. ⁓ But I love what you were saying.

I mean, yes, talk to a friend, but also like saying the things out loud. And that's one of the things I hope that this podcast does because it's sometimes I feel more powerful because I actually can take the time to say, Hey, guess what? This isn't working. And I'm lucky enough now to be in a place where I won't get fired for saying that because I'm my own boss. Um, but it's a really,

it shows me that when women come up to me, just like you were saying they do to you and say, my gosh, thank you for saying that. I feel that, but I've never heard it before on a keynote or, you know, slide into my LinkedIn DMS and say, my gosh, I feel like you're talking just to me. You know, it just, it, makes you realize the power of speaking about something that is different than the norm.

Yes. And we spend our whole lives thinking, well, this is how it has to be, and this is the way it goes. And once you start to question it, you can't go back. You're like, huh, now I question everything.

Dr. Merary Simeon (36:46)

Call it a, you can't unsee it, right? Exactly. Yeah. And you know what? I think the other big piece to remember is once we start seeing those things and you start going to this growth and embracing adversity as a superpower, I go back now and when I'm in certain situations and I'm like, huh, I kind of been through worse and I can't, and I made it.

Like you talked about your burnout and my burnout and I'm like, I've made it so I can get through this and do it smarter so that I don't have to burn out. So I look at those mistakes that I made as that's my superpower. I am here to tell the story so that others don't have to go through it. But then I also can tell when I'm going into that spiral, that cycle, or when those feelings come back like.

Ooh, this feels familiar and I don't like it. So why do I need to do it? It's embracing that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:47)

It's that sense memory too of like, I remember the last time I felt like this. And again, just like sitting and listening to your body and listening to yourself is not something that we're really conditioned to do, but it is part of the healing process and it's an absolute. So let me ask before I get to the last, last question. If you're a leader, you know, when you talk to executives, ⁓ in your own, you know, companies that you've worked in your, you know, high level HR leader, like what are some things that are happening or could happen that will actually make change in the system itself.

Dr. Merary Simeon (38:24)

The biggest thing that I've done and I communicate and I talk to leaders or coach leaders on, it's really expanding their own network and sharing their power. And that power could be knowledge, that power could be a seat at the table. But what I found that changes the numbers, the number one thing is sponsorship. And sponsorship starts with getting to know someone that is different than you.

And that is on the personal level as well, not just in the business side. When you really think about all the unconscious things that are going on in your brain and what we're being fed on, whether it's women that have a family or whether it's women that are too emotional or all this, it's like, how do you get to know those people in a personal level? always...

say to, I used to always say when the people that my friends and the people that I invite to my house, I'm very intentional about making sure that they're not all Latinos, that they're not all that look like me and that they're all not in corporate America because then I'm doing my children a disservice. I'm trying, yeah, because I'm not exposing them to the real world and the real world is multicultural and that includes white men and white women.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:34)

Right, right, right.

Dr. Merary Simeon (39:44)

So we need to be able to expand that. So the same thing that I tell multicultural women, if you're only going to the Latino community, you are missing out on knowledge and growth. And the same way I'll tell a white male or white woman, you are missing out on all these additional learnings for the future that the multicultural community brings. So it's something that we have to do together. So when I deal with the leaders in the position of power, I'm like, who's at your table?

And I don't, yes, in the workplace, but who's at your dinner table? Who do you take out to lunch? Who do you mentor? And the funny part about it is that I remember talking to some high level executives about their sponsorship and they're like, I don't sponsor anybody. And I'm like, you do it every day, unconsciously. And that is with the people that are around you in the workplace and the people that you keep. ⁓

that you keep company with. You're doing that every day because sponsorship, yes, you need to know the work. Yes, you need to know ⁓ what are you bringing to the table. But Ellen, if I'm hanging out with you every day, whether it's lunch or it's in the playing golf or it's in soccer, it doesn't matter. Or my kids get, I am going to feel more comfortable with Ellen. I know your work. I know everything that you're doing. So of course I am going to pick you over Marari because I haven't had time to spend with Marari.

So a lot of the work is, may seem easy, but you'd be surprised how hard it is for people to just make the time to get to know others that are not like you. And it's not about, what is it to be a Latina? No, it's all about, wow, I see things from a different lens. I can see all the great things that you're doing. I can see the decisions that you're making. And I am building a trust, a relationship.

To me, if there's one thing leaders could do, if you don't want to post sponsor or mentor, build relationships. And if you build relationships with people that are not like you, and that's both to the multicultural women as well as people that are not, it's a game changer. And it is what brings change. I'm telling you, I could not be where I am today if people didn't build a relationship with me and got to know me and helped me elevate, but give me the opportunity to show what I can do.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:08)

I 100 % agree. And it's one of those simple but not easy things or it's simple, but you, I think it's almost so simple that we don't think to do it. And I see this in like, even like when you're doing a presentation, the quotes that you use, we have heard enough from Adam Grant, like he's great. No offense, Adam Grant, if you're listening, which I am sure not, but.

there are so many other people who are saying really, really wonderful things that are not white men and that maybe aren't as well known. And it's just the thoughtfulness of expanding who you're reading and who's writing the articles and where can you get a viewpoint that... And the thing is, is it takes a little bit longer. The easiest thing to do is Google quote on leadership and all those people will come up, right?

taking a second to say, ⁓ who do I really want to hear from? Who's not on my bookshelf or in my podcast space and putting them there? I think that's one of the most important things you can do because it just starts to show that there are lots of voices out there.

Dr. Merary Simeon (43:22)

And there's a lot of great people. There's a lot of great white men that want to help. I could not be who I am and what I do today if it wasn't for those white men who said, I'm gonna mentor you. I'm gonna sponsor you. Go do what you're great at. it's, and that's why I do the work that I do because I really believe there's great, great leaders out there who want to help.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:50)

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a, like I think RBG said, like it's not pie, right? So if you're working to help your team become full of different people and not the same person, that doesn't mean you don't like that person, that persona that you have on your team now. It doesn't mean that you think they're terrible. ⁓

It just means that there needs to be more voices at the table. I think a lot of people can think, well, you just hate white men or you're so angry at white men. It's really not that. It's just saying currently they have the lion's share of everything. And there are a lot of other people who can be part of that. And like, let's make space for everybody. Yeah, share it. I love that. my gosh.

Dr. Merary Simeon (44:37)

Share your power. That's it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:41)

All right, this has been awesome. can't believe it's over. But let me ask you my last question. If you were going to give a TED Talk on something not directly related to your work, what would it be on and why?

Dr. Merary Simeon (44:51)

would call it the work beneath the work. Nice. Because I truly believe forgiveness is the hidden reset button for our energy, for your energy.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:05)

There's your title. Forgiveness is the hidden reset button. It's time to do that TED Talk.

Dr. Merary Simeon (45:09)

I might have to. Forgiveness is the hidden reset button. That would be what I would do it on. Because I really believe that the hardest work that we do is not in your to-do list. It's inside of you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:27)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this conversation has really brought that home for me. And I really appreciate it because it's a good reminder that we have to serve ourselves first. And it is hard, but it is doable. Absolutely. the benefits are many once you kind of go through that. So we will definitely put a link to your book in the show notes. Where else can people find you? Are you on all the social?

Dr. Merary Simeon (45:52)

I'm on all the socials. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, or my website, and we can put a link on that as well. yeah, it's been wonderful being on here. I truly do believe, and I'm going to use that from now on, that forgiveness is the hit and reset button because of the work that I do with leaders across corporate America. If I am not clear, And if I am carrying wounds, I'm not going to be able to help others bring clarity.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:27)

You're so right. And it's not always a quick fix, the forgiveness. you know, take your time.

Dr. Merary Simeon (46:34)

I do it every day. Every day I look and I'm like, if I'm having a bad day, I'm like, my gosh, what do I need to? What's inside my cup today?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:43)

⁓ this has been such a good conversation, Merary. Thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it and we will see all of you soon.

Thank you for listening to another episode of Hard at Work. Hard at Work. As we wrap up today, I wanna thank Dr. Merary for this conversation, for her honesty, her leadership and her willingness to name the parts of work culture that so often go unspoken.

And this episode, think, reminds us that burnout isn't just about long hours or bad bosses. It's about what we carry inside us. The old messages, the unhealed moments, the pressure to prove ourselves at any cost. And as Merary shared so powerfully, constant availability is not effectiveness. It is burnout in disguise. If you're walking away with one thing from this episode, I hope it's this.

Healing isn't a detour from your career. It's the foundation that allows you to lead, choose, and live with integrity. Forgiveness, which is a hard one for me, of yourself, of others, of past versions of you, can really be a reset button. You can find Dr. Merary, her book H.E.R.A.C.T., her podcast, What Rules?, and her consulting work linked in the show notes. I highly recommend spending some time with her work, not rushing through it, but sitting with it. And if this episode resonated, I hope you'll share it not just as content, but maybe as permission. Permission to slow down, to ask questions, and to do the work beneath the work. As always, thank you so much for listening. I'm Ellen Whitlock Baker, and this is Hard at Work.