Emotions as a Tool for Connection: Trystan Reese on Leading Bravely

Mar 12

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Hard at Work podcast, host Ellen Whitlock Baker sits down with award-winning author, facilitator, and coach Trystan Reese to explore the transformative power of "adaptation skills" in the modern workplace.

Reese challenges the prevailing "throwaway culture" by arguing that no employee is truly disposable, particularly when harm is caused unwillingly due to a lack of awareness or a steep learning curve. By moving away from shame-based reactions and toward restorative coaching, organizations can help leaders transition from causing harm to becoming genuine accomplices in building more inclusive environments.

Reese introduces the "farming for dissent" framework—a strategy used by leaders like Barack Obama—to proactively seek out and reward disagreement as a means of building trust and improving project outcomes. Listeners will learn how to implement "pre-mortems" to identify risks before they become failures, turning potential workplace disasters into opportunities for collective growth.

For people who struggle with receiving feedback, Reese provides a masterclass on navigating rejection sensitivity and the physiological "tunnel" of emotional triggers. He shares practical "nervous system hacks," such as the power of starting a difficult conversation with a simple "thank you" to signal safety to both the speaker and the receiver.

The episode also highlights the importance of modeling self-awareness by allowing leaders to "tap out" of conversations when they are too emotionally activated to respond productively.

Finally, the discussion reframes the goal of workplace culture from "psychological safety" to "brave leadership". Reese explains that while safety can be misconstrued as mere comfort, bravery allows for the discomfort necessary to dismantle systemic biases and foster real change. By centering dignity and curiosity over defense mechanisms, teams can create higher-trust environments.

Tags:#BraveLeadership #WorkplaceCulture #ConflictResolution #TrystanReese #InclusionAndBelonging #FeedbackSkills #PsychologicalSafety #HardAtWorkPodcast #LeadershipDevelopment #FarmingForDissent

Show Notes:

Trystan Reese: Award-winning author, storyteller, and facilitator focusing on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Collaborate Consulting: Trystan’s company which provides training, coaching, and strategy for individuals and teams.

Resmaa Menakem: A therapist and trauma specialist mentioned for his revolutionary work on "somatic abolitionism".

The Social Justice Training Institute (SJTI): An organization that provides intensive, immersive experiences for social justice work.

Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington: Co-founder of SJTI and a mentor Trystan credits for his refreshing approach to training.

Dr. Kathy Obear: Co-founder of SJTI and mentor to Trystan.

Minda Harts: Author and previous guest on the podcast, mentioned for her work on trust.

Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen: A book Trystan recommends for learning how to receive feedback well.

Brené Brown’s Dare to Lead: Specifically, the "Rumble" framework for holding hard conversations and unarmoring.

Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI): An evidence-based assessment tool used to help teams work across lines of cultural difference.

Nonviolent Communication (NVC): A framework mentioned for taking the tension out of hard conversations.

Transcript

Ellen Whitlock Baker:

Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Hard at Work podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Whitlock Baker. And today's guest is someone who truly understands the power of a story to change a culture. Trystan Reese is an award winning author, facilitator and coach focusing on diversity, equity and inclusion.

He has been organizing with the trans community for nearly two decades, serving on the front lines of this generation's most significant fights for LGBTQ plus justice. The founder of Collaborate Consulting, Trystan provides customized training, coaching and strategy for individuals, teams and organizations interested in adaptive leadership, which we'll talk about in the show. He calls Portland, Oregon home and he lives there with two of his three children. They are very happy which just makes my heart sing. What makes Trystan so vital to the workplace right now is his ability to facilitate these transformative experiences that he talks about. He works in a very specific high stakes niche, coaching leaders and teams who have unintentionally caused harm. He's the person who's walking into the conflict to teach what he calls adaptation skills.

In this episode, we tackle some of the hardest parts of being a manager. We talk about the unhealthy piece that many organizations settle for and why Trystan believes that everyone deserves a chance to learn and grow. We drive into the pre-mortem strategy that Trystan came up with, and I absolutely love how to mine for dissent like Barack Obama did. And Trystan even gives me a live coaching moment on switching out the word safe when describing workplaces and replacing it with brave, which is like a complete mind blow that I can't wait for you to hear. This was honestly one of my favorite conversations so far this season. Trystan's warmth and care is infectious and you're going to walk away with this from this one with a lot of really helpful, actionable and brave new ideas for how to lead with heart. Please enjoy Trystan Reese on Hard at Work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:40):

Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Hard at Work podcast.

I'm your host, Ellen Whitlock Baker, and I am joined today by the amazing Trystan Reese. Hi, Trystan.

Trystan Reese (3:53):

Hi, so happy to be with you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker:

So happy to be with you. And Trystan is an author, storyteller, consultant, coach, facilitator, and most importantly, human, which you say on your website, and I love. And I'll have read your bio

before this, know, in the intro, but what do want folks to know about you as they're starting to get to know you on the podcast?

Trystan Reese:

Yeah, that's a great question. I've been been asking, you know, that's really been a lot of the last couple of years as I do all of this work, mostly because I go where the love is, you know, where is there like a need for me and something that I really enjoy doing. And so I guess the first thing I'll say is I think at my very, very core, what I do is I teach adaptation skills. I teach people how to adapt.

Trystan Reese (04:38.546)

to situations that are unfamiliar to them, across lines of difference with people who don't share a lot of their identities, and workplaces, how to adapt to a changing work demo.

Ellen Whitlock Baker:

I really want to get into that because when we first met, I was so astounded by the work that you do because it is so needed. And I don't know if you've met a lot of other people who do it, but it doesn't seem to me like it's happening enough. And part of what you do is work with people who have caused harm at work whether they meant to or not, to help them understand why it was harmful and like give them some empathy and help them get to a better place to be a better accomplice in the future. Can you tell us a little bit about that work and maybe what got you started in this?

Trystan Reese:

Sure. Well, I think the little correction I'll make is, you know, I work with people who have caused harm unwillingly. If someone causes harm in the workplace on purpose, that's not a corrective conversation moment. That's a go straight to HR, do not pass go, do not collect $200 thing. If someone is trying to hurt someone, around identity in the workplace, I cannot help them. I just can't. And so that sweet spot of who I work with are people who have caused harm, but did not mean to or don't understand how or why, and maybe even a basic conversation with typically an untrained HR person, not that they're not untrained in HR, they're great at HR, but they don't necessarily know how to say, you know, an example of someone I worked with was, you know, when you call a woman hysterical, it has an impact that you're not totally recognizing. And if that initial conversation doesn't land, particularly if someone's unionized, you can't just let them go. You know, there need to be steps taken. And in other cases, they're like, I get it, but like, I don't know how to not mess up in the future. So that's typically when I come in. And, you the reason that I do this work to sort of why is it's really at the heart of what you named is like, I don't think that anyone is disposable. That includes straight white men who are in positions of power. They have wives, they have children who are girls and women, they have kids who are trans, their kid might marry a person of color. You know, they're going to continue to have different identities.

Trystan Reese (06:58.196)

pop up in their lives, it's just not in alignment with my values. That we just toss someone out because they use the wrong word or they don't understand or they're still on a learning curve. And so I just think that no one's disposable. That means for my community of queer and trans people, it means people who are incarcerated. I do a lot of work with people who are incarcerated. It also means people with relative positional or demographic power. I don't think that anyone is so quote unquote bad that they deserve to be cast out. So that's sort of like core belief.

Trystan Reese (07:28)

And then how did I get into this? I mean, I was just doing it in workplaces, I guess, as part of unpaid labor, you know, when a lot of my colleagues will be like, like he's capital B bad, you know, about an employee, you know, who used a word inappropriately, who didn't know the history of a phrase. And that just never sat well with me. I never wanted to be part of that gang of people who was saying, well, that person is bad and should be fired. And so typically, when I see a fire, run in, you know what I mean? So typically like, I would go directly to that person and say like, hey, like, I don't think your capital be bad. I see that you made a mistake. I see that you didn't mean to. Do you want to talk about it? I'm here. And so I just started doing that, you know, as part of my job, on top of my job. And then someone witnessed me doing that. She went on to another organization. She saw some harm being caused in that organization and said, Hey, would you come in and coach this person?

And so I started doing it and I really loved it and it is not work that a lot of people want to do so it ended up being kind of a niche that I would get called in to do three to five coaching sessions with people who have had complaints filed against them around identity women trans people people of color and help coach them to understand What happened? What was the impact? What was your intention? And how do we bring that more closely into alignment movie?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:48)

It's so amazing because the shame that we feel when we find out, most of us, you know, find out that we have harmed someone in any way, that shame can really shut you down. And definitely that's part of white fragility or whatever we want to call it. But, know, like the being in a world where you're used to maybe not having to think about those things as much because of your identity and then realizing, my gosh, I hurt someone and I didn't realize it – it's easy to go dark then, you know? And I've done that before. mean, when I first learned about it.

Trystan Reese (09:27):

Yeah. And that's what I try to tell marginalized people too is like, we've all been harmed. We've all caused harm. None of us are better than anybody else. And it feels good in a bad way to think it's like scratching a mosquito bite. It feels good, but it does. It's not actually good to be like, look at that person. They're bad. Therefore, I am good. But inevitably, we're all gonna make a mistake. We're all gonna be accused of harm or have actually caused harm. And then what? When we've created this culture that if you make one mistake, we throw you away. Who wants to live in that world? I don't.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:58)

No, no. And you're right. Everyone will make a mistake or even just meet someone that has a different viewpoint and might react differently to something they're saying. It's not even a mistake sometimes. It's just difference. And we've been so conditioned to like be different as opposed to celebrating that it's okay to be different. Do you ever do work with leaders or folks who are helping set the tone in an organization, the culture? If you do that kind of work sort of at the whole systems level, which I think you do, what are some of the things that folks should think about at a systems level to support their employees?

Trystan Reese (10:36):

Yeah, I do quite a bit of like all staff trainings on just like conflict has been one of the biggest things is just like, how do we hold conflict? How do we hold the difference of opinion that matters a lot to two or more people and for which there is like some kind of heightened emotional tenor to it. And so that's typically what I'm talking about at Teams is, you know, there can be healthy generative conflict or there can be unhealthy peace.

And I actually worked with a team recently where one of the leaders was like, I just don't think we have a lot of conflict here. And so, you know, one thing I actually think in my professional life is I've been pretty good poker face, you know, but inside I was like both laughing and also crying and also rolling my eyes all at the same time, because I'm like, it's not possible. And, know, because of confidentiality, I can't say a lot about this particular team, but they were in public health, let's say that. And I'm like, there is no way that a public health

Trystan Reese (11:32.853)

team that made it through COVID doesn't have conflict. And so if you think there's no conflict, it's what I would call an unhealthy piece, which is where a few key people usually sitting at intersections of marginalization that they're holding all the conflict in their bodies, but there isn't a healthy place to put it. isn't a framework for someone to disagree and say, actually, I don't think we're approaching this the right way. Or I have a different idea.

And instead of being afraid or leaning away from it or punishing that person, people are like, yes, thank you, bring it. And then rewarding that person and being excited about the difference and being excited to be wrong. And so that's part of what I teach when I talk about conflict and how to disagree without being disagreeable or however I frame it for each team is like, how do we lean into those points of disagreement? How do we lean into the conflict of like, we're going to learn so much.

And we're going to build an even stronger relationship and we're going to have even more trust because we know that we can bring a disagreement and the team can handle that. And we're going to be rewarded for bringing it forward. Even if we don't always bring it forward like the most perfect way, you know, even if there's perfectionism. Yeah. Or, you know, some of the white culture norms are like, if you disagree, you can only disagree in the following ways. You always have to have a measured tone. You can never show that you're energetic or upset or frustrated or disappointed, you know?

Yeah, I teach frameworks for leaders to be excited when someone, you know, when there is the sort of anarchist on the team or when you have someone who's a little bit more oppositional is both how can that person engage in a way that's healthy for them and how can we really hear what they have to say, even if like they also happen to be crying at the same time because we're like allowed to have feelings, you know?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:19)

Yeah, 100 % we're allowed to have feelings.

I'm, it's so interesting. I'm listening to that and I'm identifying both with the leader who's afraid of conflict. Like I've definitely been there and the person who, like you said, runs into the fire and is maybe sounds like I can be the squeaky wheel. And I've also been the leader who's like, please don't have any conflict. We're fine here. We're a family, you know, and I've learned over time, but so many people are afraid of conflict. And I find that a lot of my clients, particularly the women I work with, but I don't think it has to be gendered. It's really, really scary, you know, and it feels, we've been conditioned in a lot of ways to feel like it's wrong, it's bad, just like you were saying, you know, we're supposed to be measured, all of these things. What is, I don't know if you want to, if you're able to share a framework or two, or, you know, if you're working with someone who's in that space of like, I am terrified, because fear is a hard place to come out of

of conflict. And I understand that we do need to have healthy conflict, but as a leader, I honestly have no idea how to do it. You know, what would you say to that person?

Trystan Reese (14:30):

Yeah, well, I'm trained in the Brene Brown dare to lead frameworks. And so the rumble framework and for folks who don't know Brene Brown is a social scientist who's done it just her whole life's work really, at the last 10 years or so have been focused on teams and workplaces.

And she has a really wonderful, conflict framework called the rumble framework, which I really like. And, know, there are a few core principles. So, you know, one is that each person is willing to unarmor. so even if someone's saying, you know, I feel that there's a conflict here. And to be honest, like, I'm not good at conflict. I'm scared of conflict and just naming your emotional state. You think that it gives it more power. doesn't just going in and saying, honestly, like, I'm really afraid I'm going to cry.

You know, I care so much about this issue or I care so much about you as a colleague and a teammate. I don't want to lose a professional relationship. I don't want you to quit. I don't want to quit. Yeah. So starting with being willing to show a little bit of that vulnerability, which is when you put something that's dear to you out and you're not quite sure how it's going to land. That's what vulnerability is. It's not, you know, trauma dumping on someone. It's just.

Letting that guard down a little bit and just saying I feel really nervous right now. I feel scared. feel worried I feel anxious I feel angry and just giving a little bit of the language to that emotional state can really help Move things down and then I would say the other thing is the pre work before you go into a hard conversation Really taking the time to either talk through with a neutral person or just write out, you know what happens

Trystan Reese (16:06.121):

What was my interpretation of what happened? You know, what's the story I told myself about what happened? And just doing a little bit of that work. So you're not coming in saying, Ellen, you don't care about my opinion. You're coming in saying, Ellen, you you keep interrupting me in meetings. You're just saying, what is the actual fact of what happened? And then saying, and you know, when you do it, it causes me to feel like my opinion doesn't matter.

So I'm saying like both what actually happened and also what's the story I'm telling. And some of that might be because I had a super mean parent who talked over me all the time. That's not your business. That's not your problem. You don't need to know about that. But for me to just say, here's the impact it had, that even again, it's just the most basic framework. You can look at nonviolent communication frameworks, same thing, like what happened, why it was important to me, what I want to happen next.

Any of those frameworks is super easy takes a lot of the tension out. And I think the third thing is just really making sure that whatever the big feelings are you have, that you again, you're able to move through them outside of the workplace. So that when you come in, it's not that you don't have emotions, but that you're in control of them. You want to be able to use your emotions as a tool for connection, not as a weapon for disconnection, which is the other thing I see a lot in

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:33)

Honestly, I got a little emotional when you were saying, when you were talking about that because the naming of your emotional state, the ability to go in and have a conversation with your team, you know, and say, I'm really scared right now. This is hard for me, whatever you're feeling. I don't know why it's making me emotional, but I think it's just because I've never had that, you know, and we are often...shamed for showing our emotions. God, she's crying again. You know, that's embarrassing. like, it, a, what a like beautiful thing. What a gift to give to your team. I just, that's amazing.

Trystan Reese (18:18)

And I do want to name the gendered aspect of that, you know, because women have been penalized for showing any emotion in the workplace and you know, nothing against like the Sheryl Sandbergs of the world, but this lean in mentality of women just acted more like men, they could get ahead. really, a lot of the work that I do is saying, no, like men should act more like women to get ahead. And, you know, because I want a workplace where more women do feel like they can say today's a really heavy day. Yeah. We fought hard for that contract. didn't get it.

It hits deep. I'm feeling a lot of grief about that. And here's why I saw Ellen work harder than she has ever worked on this proposal and to have it not land the way we wanted. It really sucks. Yeah. Like I want women to be able to show up and do that and not have people be like, Oh great. I guess I them to find again. Um, but particularly if men can model that it opens up more possibility. And again, we think if we name it emotion, we're giving it more power.

opposite is true. The leader were to say, want to name what I'm feeling right now. And people are like, I don't have to hold this anymore. Gosh. And it is true. Many hands make light work. know, what is it? The like burden shared is a burden lightened or I don't know. just made that up. There's a better, there's a better. I it. You've made a new, what are the, but, but generally speaking, if leaders are able to show healthy vulnerability and you're not crying and being like, I'm so sad we have to lay people off.

Nobody cares about your feelings about that. No, right? There's, you know, there are definitely limits here. But again, as a tool to connect with people, I think is what I've seen can really transform conflict that people are afraid of it. It shows up. mean, you can be afraid of conflict all you want, but if you can't approach it in a healthy way, it's going to show up in unhealthy ways. Yes. And if you don't have conflict in your workplace, you don't have a workplace. mean, like,

there's always going to be people who are disagreeing. And that's part of what makes a workplace really dynamic and great too, is like learning and growing and disagreeing and getting pushed to think outside of where you might be comfortable. Yeah. And if you ask, I mean, the interviews I've heard with people who worked with Barack, President Barack Obama when he was in office, universally, when people say what was his strength as a leader is they would say he mined for dissent.

Trystan Reese (20:42.885)

He looked for dissent. would say, here's what I want to do. Poke holes in it, like who disagrees? Who thinks I should do something else? And to a person, people said that was his strongest attribute as a leader is he's proactively sought out and then rewarded disagreement. And so I think, yes, it does. makes us stronger. We see that from Netflix. One of the early things was they decided not to do any children's programming. They decided other people were doing that better.

We shouldn't even go into it. Who disagrees? And the parents on the staff were like, us, we do. Like, we could do that. We could do it better. Children's programming sucks. And as a parent of three kids, I can assure you they were correct. And because the leader at the time did, he called it farming for dissent, but because they proactively went out looking for disagreement and then rewarded it, you know, we now have like much better children's programming today than we, think we would have had otherwise.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:37):

You know, if I'm listening to this, I'm not a CEO. I'm a mid-level manager. Maybe I'm an executive director at a nonprofit or I'm, you know, running a team sort of sandwiched within the organization. But I have team members who report to me. How – can you model what that Farming for Dissent, like asking people to poke holes in something, what might that look like at that sort of level that's a little bit more...everyday work.

Trystan Reese (22:08):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean other than here's the direction we're gonna go in or here's where I think we should go who disagrees What am I missing? i'll do what's called a pre-mortem Which is where we think like, okay, it's the day after our big event and it bombed. Why did it bomb? my god, what a great idea to think about like the food didn't arrive on time. Yeah, that would really screw us. Like who are we using for catering? Like have we worked with them before? How are we double and triple checking? Great. the name tags didn't arrive and nobody knew who they were. Great. What's that? You know, and so just trying to train the team that there's so much of this like, manifesting that we can't even put that into the world. That's not science. It's not science that if we say what if the food doesn't show up on time, that somehow magically the food isn't no, of course not.

Trystan Reese (22:59.771)

You know, and so I think we've because of this like toxic positivity We've kind of trained people to be like we can only say positive things. Well, then how are we planning for if and when something does go wrong because it will you know? I'm just training the team that you're open to that mindset is okay is like planning ahead thinking for what could go wrong putting in stopgaps Yeah, all the way to What I do then when you're one-on-one is asking for critical feedback.

So in the middle of a supervision meeting, I prefer to put it in the agenda and I train my, when I've had teams, I train them on every check-in meeting looks like this. We're going to look at each project. What are your big picture goals, your quarterly goals, your monthly goals? Where are you getting stuck? How can I help? What feedback do I have for you on how you've shown up over the past week, month, however it's been since we've done the last one. What feedback do you have for me on how I'm showing up as your manager for a long time?

Most employees will say, no, no, everything is great. And so what I do and what I teach people I'm coaching to do is I model a self critique. So I would say, Ellen, it's great that you didn't see that I could do anything differently. I did notice though, that I stepped on your toes a little bit in the middle of your presentation to the all staff. I shouldn't have done that. I don't mean to undermine your expertise and productivity and all of that. Like that won't happen again. Oh my God. So I'm modeling self critique. I'm modeling, see how easy it would be.

If you just said, Trystan, you kind of on my toes during that presentation. That's how easy it's going to be. I'm showing you, I'm going to be grateful. I'm going to believe you and I'm not going to be defensive. And often those are the three things that I tell people. It's also what I coach people to do is I say, I'd love your feedback. I'm going to believe you. I'm not going to be defensive. I'm going to be grateful. And for some reason, those three things are really helpful in helping unlock. well, yeah. There was that time when you kind of shamed me for being late in front of the team a couple of weeks ago. That didn't feel good.

You know, like that's when the honest criticism and feedback will come. then, you know, I do a lot of work as a neurodivergent person on rejection sensitivity as well. So then it's also how do you manage the back end of that? When you hear it and you're like, no, I'm red. Totally. Yeah. That's a whole other sort of toolkit, but you know, as a middle manager, as someone anywhere at any level, know, modeling it publicly and then modeling it one-on-one, creating those feedback loops. And honestly, the best thing you can do for rejection sensitivity is more the more feedback you're getting, the less it hurts.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:26)

The less. It's like exposure therapy. Talk a little bit about rejection sensitivity, because I've learned about that relatively recently and I so identified with it. And I would love to hear more about that. Plus, I think it's really hard to turn off that shame when you get criticized, whether you ask for it or not, for the first many times. So how do you help folks through that?

Trystan Reese (25:50)

Yeah, I mean, it's feedback that I got early on in my professional career that hurt really bad in the moment and then was probably the most useful feedback I ever got was just that I was a really hard person to bring things to. And I got really defensive. And so I read a really great book called Thanks for the Feedback. And all the data discussed in that book leads us to believe that a feedback conversation is only successful if the person receiving the feedback can receive it well.

It actually doesn't matter really how you bring feedback. You can bring things as perfectly as you want. If the receiver is not open to it, it doesn't matter. And so that book is completely focused on how to receive feedback well. So rejection sensitivity, it shows up in huge percentages in neurodivergent people, people with autism or autistic people, people with ADHD like myself.

It's really big for us and then it's big for other people as well. People with anxiety, people with past workplace trauma, et cetera. So there are a lot of things you can do. I just did a keynote last year specifically on rejection sensitivity because it's the thing I care so much about. cool. Yeah. So staying grounded in your body is a huge thing. Getting as much feedback as you can as often as you can really does help. It really does help. If you're getting a level two, criticism before it becomes a level 10? Huge. If someone can say, by the way, last week you did this thing, can you not do it anymore? Sure. That's way better than for the last year. You've been doing this thing and now I'm quitting because of it. That is like highly dysregulating, you know? And so if you can train yourself to get those low level criticisms early on, you know, then that can really help with.

Christian Parry (27:40.505)

the longer term things. So yeah, we could do a whole other episode

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:46)

Well, you'll have to come back because I think it is such a common, it's very common to feel that way. definitely, almost all of my clients feel that way. And it is such a tricky thing at work to open that line of communication with your team and feel safe enough to do that with them and vice versa. And safe is a tough word in the workplace, but not everyone's going to feel great about telling. You have to set up sort of a trust relationship. And we just had the amazing Minda Harts on and she wrote a great book about trust and we talked about that. if you're living in a place where that trust isn't really there yet, or you've walked into a situation that might have been not so great, how do you start to build that so people do feel comfortable giving you feedback?

Trystan Reese (28:42):

Yeah. Honestly, saying thank you is a huge hack. Even if in your body you feel shame, embarrassment, you disagree, you want to defend, you want to deflect, just start, number one, it's always breath. Our nervous systems are always like, no, there's a very slow tiger approaching me.

Feedback often is interpreted as attack in our bodies, physiologically, So just being able to breathe. And then if the first thing you say is, really want to appreciate you for bringing that feedback to me. Ooh, I love that. Just start by saying thank you. It's a trick for you as much as for them. You know, if the first thing you do is to go, well, no, but well, don't do that. Even if you think they're like capital W wrong and you have more information.

to just start by saying, really want to thank you for bringing this to me. It's just a huge tone shift. It signals to them, right, I can also relax. I'm not going to be chained, belittled, judged, attacked, dismissed. It's a big hack for your nervous system. People are like, yeah, right, we're just people having a conversation. There's no tigers. You know? I love that. And then so like breathe, say thank you. Then next is ask a question.

Trystan Reese (30:01.601)

Anything you can think of anything you could think of say more about blank. you know, I'm wondering if you considered this, how did that impact you? Right? Any, anything you can do to get out of the teach, defend lecture ad and into that space of curiosity. Again, it's a hack for you as much as it is for them, right? If you're leaning into the conflict as opposed to away from it.

Or, you know, even if you say like, really appreciate that feedback. Is it okay with you if I think about it for a couple of days and we come back to conversation? Like if you notice you're starting to get like, get hot face, typically my coaching clients, I walk them through physiologically, how do you know you're like falling out of whack? it hot face? Is it clammy hands? Is it, you know, like, you know, is it

Are you sweating? Are your thoughts like slowing way down? It is always okay for you to say, you know, really appreciate what you brought to me and I'd like to give it a little bit of space to breathe. Would you mind terribly if I thought about it for a couple of days and can we revisit again on Thursday? I want to hear more. I realized, I think probably relatively recently that my stress response is, I tear up and I tried to not do that because you're not supposed to cry at work, you know.

And we had a great conversation about that earlier in this podcast, but helping folks recognize when you're really emotionally triggered, when that stress response is kicking in. Because you can't necessarily stop it right away. Like it's sort of a train that... Well, physiologically, it's a tunnel with a beginning, a middle and an end. have to go through the tunnel. And I also think it's okay if you say, know, as your supervisor...

I am having a bit of an emotional reaction to what you're saying. And honestly, I don't want to put that on you. And so I would like to tap out for a couple of days so I can like feel my feelings and then come back and be really present with you and really hear what you have to say. Could we come back on Thursday? Right? Again, as you're modeling self-awareness, ownership of your own things, you're not apologizing. You're not like, I'm sorry, I'm crying. No, I care so deeply about this work. I worry that...

Trystan Reese (32:16.515)

You know, I like, I'm embarrassed that how I intended did not land the way that I wanted it to. I'm having an emotional experience about that. I want to go have that emotional experience and not have, like, that's not your responsibility. I'd like to get through that. I'm not going to behave well when I'm in that feeling. I love that. I'm going to tap You're naming it just like what you talked about at the beginning. It's just so easy. I coached a straight white man once and he, through, was a conflict at work and somebody said something and it hit him in a way. And he told the other guy, this is like, I'm having a disproportionate response to this interaction. There's something else here and I'd like to take the weekend to feel into that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:55)

Oh my God. Amazing.

Trystan Reese (32:59)

Look at you. Self-aware man. I love that. I use it all the time. know, cause again, he's giving himself permission to have the feeling while also not putting it on the other person, not acting out of it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:12)

I love that. And you don't have to explain that you're having a hard time or you might have like sometimes also those disproportionate responses. They surprise you.

Trystan Reese (32:23)

Yeah. Yeah. And so to have the awareness to be like, oh, this is about something else. Like this is tapped into something else for me that is like not your problem to solve. And I'd like to solve it. And can we come back on Monday when I've solved that? You know, it's I think it's always OK to say I just wonder if we could hit pause and take a little time.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:43)

Yeah. my gosh. Everyone who's listening, hire Trystan immediately to come and train all of your managers. These are skills I wish I had known when I went in. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about how we don't really have management training in many different companies. It's sort of like, you're really good at X. Why don't you lead all of the people who do X and good luck. I have so much compassion for people who maybe aren't the greatest leaders because they were never trained to do that.

And if you're living through all these norms that we think are how you're supposed to be in the workplace based on, you know, 50 years ago, it's so confusing. I, oh my God, like seriously, hire Trystan. He also is a speaker.

Trystan Reese (34:25):

One of the groups I am working with right now, someone was like, can you come home with me to Thanksgiving dinner? Can you use some help dealing with my uncle? I am not available for that, but I am happy to help you prep for that conversation.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:46)

Yes, you need to write a book, Trystan.

About other amazing topics, but seriously, this has been just like an amazing course in good leadership, you know?

Trystan Reese (35:02)

Thank you.

I did want to give you a little coaching moment. You talked about a word that gave you the ick earlier, which was about a safe environment at work, and you're like, oh, I know I shouldn't say that. I, if you just replace the word safe with brave, it really shifts things. Like I want to create a brave work environment. I want to be a brave leader. Cause we can't promise anyone's safety. There's a lot of talk about psychological safety and often then it does get misconstrued with that sort of white dominant norm of comfort. Like everyone's feeling good and we can't promise that either. And we should, quite frankly, shouldn't. It's like you might, you might say to me, know, Trystan as a man, you interrupted me three times during our podcast interview and I didn't appreciate that. That is not going to feel good to me to hear or might not. I can't promise discomfort either. Right. But that doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong. You know. And so that sort of safe thing if you just say like I want to a brave environment people feel brave enough to disagree where they feel brave enough to come to me if they feel like I could be doing something better or different and where I can come to them as well and give them candid feedback where and they're brave enough to receive it.

It does take a measure of bravery to hear someone say, I know what you can do and this was not it. What do you need for me to keep getting better? Like that's that is it requires a level of bravery. So that's my little tiny little coaching for you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:23)

‘Thank you. That was beautiful feedback. And I so appreciate it because I've been struggling with that because I know safe isn't it does it doesn't feel right. And I've talked to many people on this podcast of different identities who feel danger at work at times, know, and brave is such a good word. That's such a good word. Very Brene Brown.

Trystan Reese (36:47)

Sure is. It predates her work, you know, her work work. comes from the anti-racism in the workplace movement of the like 10 plus years ago. like that's really when I started doing all my personal anti-racism work in the last 10 to 20 years is really where I dug in full time to doing my work as a white person, dismantling racism within myself, teaching other white people how to do that. That concept of safety in the workplace, it was very quickly dismissed by the anti-racism movement. so we started talking a lot about what does a brave workplace look like. And so I'm trying to bring it back, because I think it's one the really good things to come out of those frameworks.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:25)

And totally not to put you on the spot, but I love to give people resources. Are there any folks in particular that you would think people could learn more from from that era that maybe, you know, as we're not surprised, but the people who we're hearing from constantly are not all the people that are out there saying things. Who might you recommend for folks to like read or listen to or watch or learn from?

Trystan Reese (37:51)

Yeah. So I've read all of his books. I've listened to every podcast interview he's ever done and I've done his intensive. His work is called somatic abolitionism and his name is Resmaa Menakem. Do you know him? He's a black therapist out of minneapolis. he's going to change your life. He's going to change your life. Start with the interview he did on, with Krista Tippett on being, he is just an incredible, it's, it's embodied work. So it's like, where does bias live in your body?

And what are the daily practices for really? It's deeply connected to how do you stay grounded when someone's giving you feedback, right? Like this core human need to belong, that's probably the core human need. That's what shame does. Is it literally physiologically shuts you down so that you don't get kicked out of the tribe. That's what it does. That's how it is. That's the function of shame. So the more we can be more human, more connected to our bodies, more healed.

He does amazing work and it's very practical, which I like as well. I don't care a lot about like theoretical concepts. I'm like, okay, what do we do? What are the practices? Well, how do we do this unlearning? So he's really amazing.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:08)

And that somatic piece is so important. And I love this as an alternative to The Body Keeps the Score, which is very much from a white perspective. It's a good book too, but this is different and I like it.

Trystan Reese (39:17)

Yeah, and he's just an incredible speaker and teacher. And I do think, quite frankly, I do think because of racism, think because of anti-blackness, I don't think he's recognized as the truly revolutionary leader and thinker of our time that he is. And then I would say if people are interested in more formal training, I did a lot of my work with an organization called the Social Justice Training Institute, SJTI, and that's led by the Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, whom I adore. He's incredible and he's a, a gay black man who comes from faith traditions, obviously he's a reverend. And he's this, I would say the frameworks, the approach, the modality that people hear from me that they're like, that's very refreshing. It's him. It's also Dr. Kathy Obear, who I think of as one of my mentors, they built this together. And so it's very much that like, how do we create shame free environments for people to really change?

And so when people are like, I felt good when I went to your training, even though it was really hard work, like I feel excited, I feel energized. It's them. Like they did that to me. And the science backs it up that people truly do change the most when shame is not in the room. When people emerge from an interaction, a conflict, a coaching, whatever it is, when they emerge with their dignity intact, that's when the real change happens.

And that's what I care most about is not anybody feeling bad or good, but like, what do we actually know works? There are tools that work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:52)

I would say for something like the Social Justice Training Institute, that might be something you have to go out and do on your own because work is not bringing it to you these days or ever maybe, the workplaces that are able to hire folks like Trystan and others and send people to something like that. Amazing. Please keep doing that. But we're seeing such an awful decrease in that kind of work right now. So if you have the means, it's a really smart move to do that for yourself because you can't learn everything by yourself and on your own. And I love that you've named so many people you learned from, but I think it must have been the interaction you had at the institute too that helped you grow and learn.

Trystan Reese (41:44)

Yep. Doing those immersive experiences made a huge difference. I'm still doing some work with the intercultural development inventory, which is a tool that I'm certified to administer and to do work with teams around. That's something where because it's so evidence-based, there's this huge body of work.

And because it could be considered quote unquote DEI, but it's so very practical and it's working across lines of cultural difference, which every workplace has to grapple with because it be intergenerational, et cetera. So people have still been able to get funding to do that. And so you asked a little bit off camera, what's the future? I think the future is to keep doing the work and to keep being creative about what we call it, how we frame it.

When I'm doing the conflict work, I'm talking about culture, I'm talking about race, I'm talking about sexism, I'm talking about transphobia. All of that shows up when we're in conflict with each other. You know, if I accidentally call you by the wrong pronoun, big deal, it was a slip. You call me by the wrong pronoun, it has a much different weight to it, because I'm a transgender man. You know, those things really matter. So I think this work is still happening, it's going to keep happening, and people just have to keep being tenacious and creative.

And how they ask for permission on how they ask for forgiveness on how they talk about it on how they frame it as this is a problem that we're solving, you know, that's something we're bringing in as part of some other agenda, guess.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:09)

I love that. think brave is the word for the year. I just think that is just really sticking with me with that. All of that. You do a lot of work coaching work and speaking work and everything on behalf of the trans community. What are some things that you think it would be important for every leader to know or co-worker to know about being trans in the workplace that might help us be better accomplices and create healthier environments for folks.

Trystan Reese (43:39)

Yeah, well, I try not to speak on behalf of anyone, but I can speak from my personal experience and certainly I've probably read every study on trans people at work that exists so I can also bring some data and then I try to empower trans people in workplaces to be able to speak for themselves if and when they want to. But I would say some things to keep in mind, particularly this year, are that it has felt like a lot of our public allies have certainly atrophied. They've sort of slipped. We've seen some of our most vocal allies politically start to backslide, our most vocal corporate allies have started to backslide.

You know, making sure that if you do consider yourself an ally, that you do continue to bring your voice when it makes sense within your sphere of influence in the workplace. And then don't be afraid to, you know, develop some feedback loops. I think we're often too nervous to just go to someone and say like, Hey, I've been pushing really hard to get trans health covered in our policy. Like you're a trans person. Has that felt okay to you? How am I doing?

Do you want to be more involved or less involved? You know, just making sure that we are checking in to be like, is this working or no? To empower a trans person to say, yes, like, please do this. Like, I do not have the time and the energy or like, yeah, I feel really hurt. I was left out. Like, well, how come I'm not on the working group? Yeah. And then you're building trust, right? You're starting to build that, you know, and you know, you're working with people instead of for people or over people.

So yeah, I think you know to continue to do what you can to continue to check in with trans folks and be like, hey, how's it going? Not too much obviously, but I don't see too much I see too little I see people are like well I don't want to put it on them to put it on us for a second, you know in the same way that if you and I were working together And I came to you. I said hey Ellen I've been really working on, you know my allyship as a man towards women and non-binary people Have you noticed anything I've done that you think might have been rooted in sexism, I would really be open to hearing what you have to say.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:45)

Oh my God, I love that.

Trystan Reese (45:46)

Would you be offended? Would you be like, how dare you put the emotional labor on me to educate you? No, it's a check-in. Yeah. It's a relationship.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:55)

And I could always say no, but like you've given me the choice of, yeah, and you've invited me. And I think that that's the difference that that is an invitation rather than a...

I think a lot of times we think of a check-in as, how are you Trystan? How are you doing today? And your answer might just be fine. And that doesn't, that's not what I'm asking really, you know, sometimes I am, but like what you just said is really what I would maybe want to ask in that situation, but I don't know how or I couldn't find the words. So I love that. Like, again, it goes back to this honesty, this naming your feelings, this like bravery. It's a beautiful, beautiful way to work and lead.

Trystan Reese (46:35)

And it's super selfish. the other thing is, know, trans people don't just talk about trans issues. We do all these other things too. You know, we work on conflict and intercultural development and coaching, you know. And so just remembering that there has been just a giant sort of sucking sound for trans people, particularly consultants, contractors, people who do my kind of work or were not necessarily nestled in a larger organization.

We built something because we wanted to be brave a few years ago. We wanted to make a big impact. We wanted to build something that was flexible and responsive to our family's needs and not within a larger structure where maybe there was transphobia baked in and we couldn't get ahead. Now, because organizations are so afraid of being targeted by this administration, that work has largely dried up. And so I just think also be creative. If you are bringing in even someone to teach you all how to do the transition to Salesforce, like, okay.

Are there any trans people doing that work? I can tell you right now, yes, there are. So thinking like, how can you proactively seek out trans folks in this era who are being targeted, who are being shut out of opportunities, who are the first to go when cuts come, to make sure that what resources you do have to leverage, those are the people that you're inviting into the work and supporting the whole. When you support one trans person, you support our whole community.

All of us are inextricably linked to each other. We're all helping with someone's day in our, you know, in our kids bunk bed when they are recovering from top surgery, because they're in Portland, because they're a friend of a friend of friend. Like we're all doing that work, you know? It's the same as when women do better, everyone does better. You know, it's just demographically speaking, women are so connected to their families, to their extended families, to their communities. When you lift one of us up, we all are lifted up by that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:21.4)

I love that. What a good note to end on, Trystan. honestly like, truly transformational conversation for me. Thank you so much.

Trystan Reese (48:30)

Of course, thanks for having me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:32)

I hope that listeners are taken away a lot and they will. I mean, this is just full of a new way of thinking about things that is helpful, you know, because a lot of times people I think want to, or a lot of people I talk to, they want to be better leaders. They want to have healthier workplaces, but it can be really hard to know how and that bravery is the way to go. And I think that's really, yeah. mean, all of everything you've said is not just bravery, but yeah, thank you. Amazing. Trystan, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time.

Trystan Reese (49:07)

Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:08)

Yay. And where can people find you? I know we talked about, you do workshops and keynotes and all sorts of things, but how can people find you?

Trystan Reese (49:16)

Yeah, if people go, I'm not on much social media anymore, but people can definitely find me on LinkedIn. That's a little bit of a safer environment for trans folks. You can go to TrystanReese.com or through my work, which is Collaborate Consulting. And I'm sure you'll put that in the notes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:31)

I will put it all in the notes. And there's some great videos on Trystan's site of him doing some keynotes and speeches and like honestly hire him. It just like as someone who's done a lot of conference planning, you're amazing. I put it out there for all the people listening who have to plan their next conference.

Trystan Reese (49:49)

Thank you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:50)

All right. Well, thanks Trystan. Have a wonderful rest of your day and we'll see you all later.

Thanks for listening.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:59)

Y'all, I am still sitting with so many moments from that conversation. Trystan has this way of framing accountability as an invitation rather than a punishment. And I think that's exactly what our workplaces need right now.
I'm particularly moved by his tunnel analogy for our emotions. The idea that we don't have to apologize for having a human reaction at work. We just have to be self-aware enough to say, hey, I'm in the tunnel right now and I need to tap out for a moment. So can I come back and be present with you in a little bit? I'm just thinking about all the times when I didn't do that at work because honestly, I didn't think I could. And...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:42.806)

where if I had, my reaction in the conversation I'd have had when not in that raw state would have been so much more effective. And that coaching he gave me about replacing the word safe with brave, that's my takeaway of the year. Bravery acknowledges that growth is uncomfortable. It means we're brave enough to tell the truth, brave enough to hear the truth, and brave enough to keep each other's dignity intact while we do the hard work of unlearning. Trystan's work is a reminder that when we lift up the most marginalized voices, the entire organization gets stronger.

If you want to bring Trystan's expertise to your team, whether it's for a keynote, a workshop on conflict resolution, a facilitation or more, head over to trystanreese.com. That's Trystan with a Y and Reese like Reese's Pieces, or Collaborate Consulting. We've put all those links plus the resources Trystan mentioned like Resma Menachem and the Social Justice Training Institute in the show notes.

All of you conference planners out there looking for an incredible keynote, Trystan's not one to miss. Thank you so much for listening to Hard at Work. Let's go out there and all be a little braver today. I'll see you next time.