Episode 6: Facing Ableism at Work: How to Heal and Reclaim Your Power
How disability, transparency, and a spoonful of honesty can make work better for everyone.
You don’t need to see someone’s pain to make the workplace accessible.
Summary:
In this candid and energizing conversation, Ellen sits down with Greer Procich—disability advocate, HR expert, and LinkedIn firestarter—to talk about building workplaces that truly work for everyone. From navigating hidden disabilities to reshaping performance reviews, Greer brings both lived experience and sharp strategy. They unpack how access, autonomy, and psychological safety benefit all employees—not just those with disabilities—and why leaders need to stop checking boxes and start changing systems. If you're ready for practical ideas on creating inclusive, equitable, and humane work cultures, this one’s for you.
Takeaways
1. Accessibility is for everyone — not just those with visible disabilities. Building inclusive systems improves outcomes across the board.
2. Performance reviews must hold managers accountable too. If no one’s thriving, that’s a leadership issue.
3. Boundaries protect your peace, but drawing them is hard—especially when access to time off is tied to privilege.
4. Hidden disabilities require proactive systems and common language to support energy, capacity, and recovery.
5. Accomplices do more than advocate. They make space, ask questions, and adapt systems to support equity.
Notable Quotes
"Accessibility isn’t extra. It’s what makes the workplace actually work—for everyone." – Greer Procich
"Telling isn’t training. And checking boxes isn’t leading." – Greer Procich
"You don’t have to disclose everything to deserve support at work." – Greer Procich
"The first step is noticing. Once you see, you can’t unsee." – Ellen Whitlock Baker
"We’re not here to be perfect. We’re here to do better." – Ellen Whitlock Baker
Chapters
00:00 – Meet Greer: From hospitality to HR
03:00 – What accessibility really means
06:30 – Self-advocacy vs. systemic barriers
12:00 – Boundaries, burnout, and performance reviews
18:00 – Spoon theory, hidden disability, and psychological safety
30:00 – Fixing performance management from the top down
42:00 – Real-life manager tips: How many spoons do you have today?
50:00 – Rethinkability and free tools to make work better
Keywords
Workplace accessibility, disability at work, HR accountability, psychological safety, hidden disability, equity in leadership, performance management, burnout prevention, spoon theory, inclusive workplaces
Links
Transcript:
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01.624)
Hello everyone and welcome back to a new episode of the Hard at Work podcast. I am so excited to have the lovely Greer Prosich here with me today and we're gonna have an awesome conversation. How are you Greer?
Greer Procich (she/her) (00:15.583)
doing well. Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. My name is Greer. I use she her pronouns and it's just a visual of what I look like. I'm a white woman with long brown hair. have glasses on, black headphones, a black shirt and right over my shoulder is a stained glass of my dog with a ball in its mouth. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:37.602)
You're so welcome. I love that intro. me why you do that. I have not heard that too often.
Greer Procich (she/her) (00:44.223)
Yeah, so if we're going to be accessible and we're going to make sure that everybody can access all of this information, you have to think about people who have low vision, people who are using screen readers, things like that. And to help them give them a visual understanding and to get a better view of what's happening, you could just give them a little description of what you look like. It's the same reason we say what our pronouns are before we start, is to just give everybody a reference point so that there's no guessing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:14.712)
love that. Thank you. I will do that. I love that. So Greer, I'm so excited to have Greer on because we met on LinkedIn because we're fired up about the same things, which is always a super fun way to meet. And eventually we're like, we just have to talk to each other and then realize we just have a ton in common. And also Greer is a disability advocate as well, which is definitely not a world I know a lot about because it's not talked about that much in the workplace.
Greer Procich (she/her) (01:16.543)
Yeah. Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (01:33.687)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:43.82)
I'm excited to dive into that a little bit, help people understand what that means and how folks can be better. You didn't use the word allies, what did you use? Accomplices to folks living with disabilities in the workplace and everyone who might need an accomplice. So I'm really excited to dig into that. Really quickly, give us the like 60 second Wikipedia entry of Greer.
Greer Procich (she/her) (01:54.903)
accomplices.
Greer Procich (she/her) (02:10.763)
Got it. I have a really odd background. It is definitely not linear. So I was in hospitality for 10-ish years, doing everything from cleaning bathrooms and making tuna salad to opening up brand new restaurants from the ground up. Did that for a while, transitioned out of that to tech.
and have been in the people space ever since. So I really focus on making sure that people are successful at work, people know what they are expected to do, and that they are really bringing their whole selves to work. So for me, the work that I'm doing right now as somebody who lives with a disability is I'm trying to create the spaces that I need to be successful because no one else is gonna do it for me. And I also really wanna bring people along on this process because
you know, I think we all have to remember that it is not an if, it is a when. We will all have disability at our front door and nobody wants to be caught off guard with that. We all want to feel supported when it comes. And so part of that is preparing, being knowledgeable and being able to support others in your life who may have a disability, maybe living with some needs, some accessibility needs. How can you support them? And then when it comes to you,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:10.478)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (03:29.749)
you won't be starting from scratch and it's less of a reactive thing. So I really want to create proactive workplaces for people to succeed.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:37.622)
Mm-hmm. I love that. I think we live in such a reactive world and the workplace is conditioned to keep us so busy that we don't ever look up to do any of the work that we need to do to, you know, be better humans with each other.
Greer Procich (she/her) (03:53.727)
Yeah, yeah, and things change on a dime and we, you know, your job description doesn't always match what your actual job looks like and that kind of stuff. In my experience, no. And I think that that's a really bad practice and we're moving really fast. You know, the world around us is moving very quickly. And so it's hard to intentionally slow down and think about things like this. So I really hope to just bring a little bit of levity, a little bit of pause, a little bit of
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:57.08)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:03.438)
Does it ever?
Greer Procich (she/her) (04:23.211)
reflection to others to say, hey, what am I doing? How am I contributing? And can I be doing anything better?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:24.526)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:30.862)
I love that. What are some things that you think are, or what are the parts of the workplace today that you feel like need the most attention?
Greer Procich (she/her) (04:44.171)
That's a loaded, that's such a, that is such a loaded question. I don't even, I literally don't even know where to start with you on that one because I think there's a lot of problems, right? There's a lot of like systemic problems, but there's also a lot of surface level problems. And so for me, I think the biggest thing that needs to be fixed right now is that systemic stuff. We can keep putting band-aids on stuff. We can keep just kind of like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:44.206)
If you're not watching, she just gave me quite the look. I love it.
I know, let's do it. I know, it's a big one.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:09.71)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (05:14.113)
brushing over surface level things, but until we actually dive in and treat what the problem is, nothing is gonna happen. And so for me, a lot of that is like, what's happening at the leadership level? How are they communicating? How are they holding people accountable? How are they being held accountable, right? And so I think a lot of things that need to change right now really start at that top level. And if we don't, we're just kinda spinning our wheels.
And so I think a big thing with this disability initiative specifically too is like, how are we empowering people at that level to bring inclusion into the workplace, to bring accessibility into the workplace? And so a lot of it is education. think there's a lot of education that needs to happen. I think a lot of things that we're doing right now are standalone, where we should be doing things in a more integrated way. like DEI is kind of this thing that sits on top.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:47.8)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (06:08.757)
of a lot of the stuff we do, where in reality equity should be the foundation of everything that we do. And so until we kind of change that mindset, it's all gonna just be where we're at right now over and over and over again, because we're not really solving the problem.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:13.806)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:25.582)
Totally. And when I started this podcast, I'm really hoping to give tangible examples and practical takeaways for both leaders and people who are just surviving in the workplace day to day. Because you have to protect yourself. Like you said earlier, no one's going to do it for you. So let's talk for a second about your
Greer Procich (she/her) (06:41.441)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:53.662)
not necessarily a leader or not necessarily a leader with all the power to make all the changes. What are some things that you can do in the workplace for yourself first and then we'll get into how we can be better accomplices?
Greer Procich (she/her) (07:07.115)
Yeah, I think for yourself, it's really hard. And I think that acknowledging being an advocate for yourself in the workplace is not easy. It's not simple, it's not clear, it's not transparent, it's not accessible. You know, I have been somebody who has been on both ends of that. So I've been the HRBP who is helping people understand how to take advantage of accessibility.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:17.804)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (07:35.381)
resources or how to use leave of absences or all of that stuff. And I set them up to fail like really, really badly because I wasn't educated on it. And then there became a time when I needed to use all of that stuff. I had to go out on a leave of absence because my doctor said, no, you're done. You're changing medicines. There's too much happening. You need to give your body a break. And so then for me, I flipped to the other side of that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:41.87)
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:02.638)
Hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (08:03.487)
had no idea how to advocate for myself, didn't know how to fill out LOA, didn't have any idea of all of that, was legitimately told by my insurance company I was not disabled enough to get paid leave, even though I have a covered federally recognized disability, right? And so for you, think as an individual, you just kind of have to draw your boundaries. I think that's the only real tangible thing that I can say is,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:19.566)
my god.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:28.526)
Mm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (08:32.703)
You know how you're doing, you know what you need, and you know what's too much. And so when you get to that point, you have to be able to say, no, I'm done. I can't, or I need this, or hey, I need to go down to part time, whatever that looks like. But that's scary, right? Because then your insurance gets impacted or your benefits get impacted or whatever that comes down to. If you switch down to part time, that kind of thing. So I think as an individual, you have to draw your boundaries.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:02.072)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (09:02.837)
And that's it. You can't really bank on anybody being there for you to support you, because it's kind of a nebulous muddy thing. I think they built it that way on purpose. And so it's hard to wade through the waters. I'll say as an HR person, I want to make sure that people know what their rights are. I want to help educate them. I want them to know what they're entitled to and what their options are, because
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:09.358)
Mm-mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:13.462)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:29.838)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (09:31.605)
So many people who have to go out on a leave or have to go out on caregiving leave or something like that, right? Because that's part of this whole thing, not just the individual, it's the people who are doing the caretaking. They also don't know what their rights are. They don't know how to reintegrate into the workforce. And we do a horrible job of setting them up as well. And so for me, it's again, a whole systemic change that needs to happen. As an individual, protect your peace, draw your boundaries. And as an HR person, educate yourself, educate your managers.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:35.917)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:57.72)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (10:01.343)
know what is available, know what is legally required, because you're the one guiding people through this stuff. And so I personally think you have to prioritize accessibility as much as you're prioritizing anything else in the workplace. so for HR teams, that means you're going and you are getting a certification on accessibility. You're doing consistent trainings for your managers and your team members, and you're holding them accountable.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:22.99)
Sorry.
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (10:29.227)
when policies change or are updated or things like that. So accessibility is something that is not ever top of mind. so we as individuals, exactly. And so we as individuals have to keep it top of mind for ourselves.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:36.896)
No. Until you need it, to your point. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:44.79)
Yeah. that's so smart. You're talking about being an advocate for yourself. It's not easy drawing your own boundaries. We talk a lot about boundaries on this podcast and I think it's probably the number one, I don't think it's the number one thing you can do to protect yourself from lots of things that work, but it's so hard to do it sometimes, especially when it's a privilege. Yeah. And also when you're in a workplace where that's frowned upon,
Greer Procich (she/her) (11:00.267)
Yeah. And it's a privilege.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:14.218)
I had a conversation with someone this weekend and I was telling them that I've never worked anywhere where the people I worked for ever said, take that time off. Or it was always, your family comes first, go do what you need to do, absolutely. But the work never stopped. And so I paid for it and that made me make choices that...
were not taking care of myself or not taking care of my family because I didn't want to miss that much work or I didn't want to miss, oops, sorry, the big thing that was happening that if I didn't show up at, I would look bad, you know. So there's this disconnect between what comes out of people's mouths and this empathy that they may or may not feel. I think they probably do. A lot of them have kids, them being leaders. But yet the work culture doesn't protect you when you do take a leave.
Greer Procich (she/her) (11:42.625)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:10.574)
And I don't know what, I mean, I think you're right, it's systemic, but how do we even start to address that? Or as a person taking leave, how can you really just know that you can be in that space and can say no to things?
Greer Procich (she/her) (12:23.595)
Yeah, and I think it's not even taking a leave. It's taking a day or two off, right? It's not even taking three months, 12 weeks of your government-protected leave. It's, can I take two days off, right? I cannot stand when people are like, I'm burning out, I'm this, I'm this, and a manager's like, take the day off. It's like, yeah, okay, cool, I'll take Friday off, and then I'll come back Monday, and the work will still be there, and my team will still need everything that they needed from me prior.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:26.538)
Yeah, exactly. That's really, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:44.312)
Take Friday off.
Greer Procich (she/her) (12:52.917)
The customers aren't covered, right? Maybe I put on my away message email, but the customers are still gonna need stuff when I come back. And so I think it's a manager's responsibility in these kinds of situations to set the individual up for success. And so it's very simple conversation. If you intentionally have the conversation, right? It's what's on your plate? What can I support you with while you're out?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:52.952)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:08.322)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (13:19.445)
Right? What kind of tasks are you going to worry about while you're gone? Ask team members those questions. Right? Because then what you can do is you can take it off their plate proactively and you can either delegate it or you can do it yourself. Another thing that managers can do, which I think every manager should do is cross train. Cross train your employees because then when somebody's out, it's like, cool. So and so they've got it. And then when they're out, flip it right back to the person who was out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:24.075)
Ooh, ooh, that's a good question.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:39.854)
Totally.
Greer Procich (she/her) (13:49.175)
previously, right? So create systems where it's sustainable, because I think that's a whole thing about accessibility is it's not sustainable. Nothing we're doing around accessibility is sustainable. And so as a manager, you have to protect your team. And what that means is you have to them up for success. And what that means is you have to transparently say, this is what success looks like. This is how you fit into it. And part of that is this is how you fit into it when you show up.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:52.332)
Yes!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:13.09)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (14:16.885)
And this is how you fit into it when you can't show up, right? Because you have responsibilities when you're taking time off to get your stuff covered, to communicate with customers, to reschedule meetings, all that kind of stuff. So why aren't we intentionally thinking about what that means for our employees and how we can create a system around being out of office and coming back and being set up for success?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:41.526)
Yes. my God, I've never thought of that as a system. Never. It's always just been like, yeah, totally, take your breaks and then everyone will frantically try to cover for you when you're gone and when you get back, they'll dump everything back on you and you'll have to answer all your emails and nothing stopped.
Greer Procich (she/her) (14:46.88)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (14:57.971)
Exactly. It's an employee journey, right? It's part of the employee journey, even if it's not a disability, even if you're taking three weeks off because you're getting married and then you're going to go on your honeymoon. You're still going to come back to all that work and be frantic. And so this is not just about accessibility for people with disabilities. And I think that's a huge thing is that accessibility benefits everybody, right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:01.26)
Mmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:09.058)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:24.45)
You bet.
Greer Procich (she/her) (15:25.479)
everybody is benefited by accessibility. And so when you build these kinds of programs to say, you take time off, you come back, this is the system that's going to support you to do that, other people who are non-disabled will also benefit from those processes too.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:40.718)
Totally. I'm thinking you're making me think of maternity leave when I took it. it was at a time when we didn't have, Washington state now has like a certain amount of paid leave that's given to you, regardless of how much you have in the bank. I had to use unpaid leave to get to a total of three months, which really isn't enough. You're just starting to get back to yourself. And then,
Greer Procich (she/her) (15:56.481)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (16:03.734)
No.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:08.456)
when I went back, you know, I had to pump twice a day in my office and the workplace I was in at that point was so chaotic that I was being called into meetings at the last minute all the time. So I eventually, you know, had to stop pumping. Like I just gave up breastfeeding because I couldn't get to it. Plus it was a huge pain in the ass. You have to bring all this stuff with you and you have to sanitize it. It's just an incredibly different way of working when you come back to work.
Greer Procich (she/her) (16:22.924)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (16:29.047)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:37.696)
after having a baby. And I'm just saying that because I think a lot of people who might be listening to this may have had that experience. And so that's an example of why, you know, protecting people's time off and really having a plan for what to do when they come back is so smart rather than just, we're just going to hold all of this until Ellen gets back and then throw it at her.
Greer Procich (she/her) (17:01.343)
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to call out that pregnancy is a really good example of a temporary disability.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:07.19)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Greer Procich (she/her) (17:10.111)
Right? And so disability can mean a lot of things. It just means that you're unable to do something. Something is prohibiting you from being able to do something at your fullest. That's what disability means.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:22.722)
Yep, yeah. And can we talk for a second about hidden disability? Because you and I were talking when we talked last time about it's not always obvious. It's often not obvious what somebody might be having to deal with underneath it all. so what are some ways that we might be overlooking that in the workplace? Like how are we ignoring
Greer Procich (she/her) (17:35.275)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:51.316)
non-visible disabilities.
Greer Procich (she/her) (17:53.879)
I mean, can you tell I'm in a lot of pain right now? No.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:57.898)
No, and I'm sorry. Right? And so you just have to get on with your day. You're smiling.
Greer Procich (she/her) (18:00.759)
But that's just what it is, right? Like, cause I'm sitting here, I'm masking. Yeah, I'm masking, exactly. We're gonna get off this call and I'm gonna go lay on the floor. I'm gonna lay on my heat pad, on my neck thing, and I'm gonna lay there until my next meeting. Because that's how I need to be accommodated, right? That's my being able to manage my disability. You would probably notice I fidget a lot. I fidget a ton. I can't sit with my legs crossed for a long time. I sit with like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:10.126)
Mmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:14.734)
Hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (18:28.083)
my legs crossed a lot of the time, not like crossed over because my hips hurt, right? And so sitting for an hour doing this while I love it, like it's hard. It's really, really hard to do sometimes. And so I think being able to say, hi, I'm Greer and this is what, how I can show up today is really, really important. And so for me, I, I feel like I say this to everybody I talk to and I'm not going to stop. I'm going to keep saying it is
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:32.919)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:37.88)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:47.896)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (18:56.797)
I like to talk about my energy and my capacity in terms of spoons, the spoon theory. It's about chronic pain and it's about quantifying the amount of energy that you have. And so today I'm actually feeling better than I have felt. So I have more spoons than I have had in past days. But what I have to do, my responsibility is to communicate to you what my spoons are, right? So if I only have like four or five spoons, one of them is gonna be used to take a shower.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:20.141)
Hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (19:26.409)
One of them is going to be used to do this podcast. And now I have two spoons left. It's only 1130 in the morning for me, for the rest of the day. Right. And so I have to manage that and I have to be open, communicate about what I need and how I can show up and all of those things. so for somebody with an invisible illness, I think you are your only advocate in a lot of ways. And so you have to advocate for how you can show up.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:35.406)
Oof.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:38.936)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:51.458)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (19:55.531)
You have to advocate for how you can show up. And part of that is creating a common language. Part of that is being transparent about your needs. But again, I think it's also comes with a really big privilege of being able to do that. I'm a white woman. So as a white woman to say, I have chronic pain or I have a disability, I benefit from all of the DEI most out of anybody, right? It's not as safe for a Hispanic woman.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:55.66)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:10.03)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (20:25.451)
to say that they have a disability.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:28.044)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (20:29.685)
So we have to also think about the systems that people with invisible illnesses are working with. And I didn't say I had a disability for a long time, a long time, because I was ashamed because I didn't know how to manage it because I was embarrassed. I was really embarrassed, right? Like early 30s, I have a disability. How am I supposed to say that? I'm disabled. And so you never know what someone's dealing with.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:51.683)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (20:58.047)
It's just that old thing, right? Like you never know what somebody is dealing with. Treat others as you want to be treated. That's it. That's all we want. Like I don't want to be treated differently. I just want to be treated with understanding. I don't want to be disabled. I don't want to be in pain every day. I don't want to have to show up like this and I don't want to have to mask, but this is what I have to do to survive. And so what I need from my managers are
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:59.531)
it is.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:11.832)
Yeah.
No.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:19.98)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (21:26.387)
spaces where I don't have to mask, spaces where I can say, I can't be on camera today, or spaces where I don't feel like I have to tell you why I'm rescheduling our meeting last minute, just understand that I'm not doing it because I want to, I'm doing it because I have to. And so even little things like that make a huge difference for somebody like me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:47.266)
That's huge. And are you listening, managers, because...
I know that when, especially for people who grew up as sort of Gen X or like, I guess, grandma millennials or whatever they're called, people my age, we were trained by this toxic culture that was like, everybody's the same, everybody should work this hard, everybody should show up in this way, this is the right way to do things, which is the whole point of this podcast is that those are outdated norms and don't work anymore.
but we have residual memory of them. And I know that I've had experiences and I've gotten better as I've learned more over time, but I'm a really empathetic, kind person. But if somebody, know, back when we were in the Zoom era, well, we still are, but when we were in the pandemic where it was only Zooms, when someone was like, I don't want to be on camera.
Greer Procich (she/her) (22:41.879)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:45.174)
My first instinct was like, God, what are they doing? Why don't they want to be on camera? Do they? They should. Come on, we're all a family. Let's be friendly. And oof, that's some toxic shit right there.
Greer Procich (she/her) (22:48.373)
Yeah!
Greer Procich (she/her) (22:54.455)
Mm-hmm. mean, I don't need to see your face to do the work.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:59.519)
No, no, and often, no. No, seriously.
Greer Procich (she/her) (23:00.767)
Is that a requirement of my job? Is it in the job description? If it's not in the job description, right? Like, I'm serious. we could talk about job description. I'm about to fidget and move like crazy. You'll see it here. man. Yeah. But we're, so much has to change. We have so much that has to change. It's nuts. It's nuts. It's absolutely crazy.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:14.382)
I'm a fidgeter too, so I'm glad we can fidget together.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:22.062)
I know, it's nuts, but I think that's really, what you just said is really helpful for managers and employees of managers to know, having a very candid conversation where you don't have to disclose what your disability is or your illnesses, but you can say, I need this, this and this and know that I am gonna get my work done. I'm gonna, you know.
It'll be on time as best as I can. Sometimes it won't be able to be, but that's everybody. And I will communicate with you the whole time through, but I'm not always gonna be able to be on camera. I may have to cancel things at the last minute. Like those were great examples.
Greer Procich (she/her) (24:04.009)
And managers, so one thing that I like to do when I start a new job, I have a new managers, I send them an article about my disability. I say, here, it. Here, enjoy this, learn about me. Yeah, no, not even Google. Nope, nope. And that's the thing is you gotta give it, you gotta give them the information and you gotta say, here's what you need to know about me. Because how else would they know, right? And so as a manager beyond that,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:12.632)
Mmm
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:17.088)
Google, Google, you don't have to ask me. You can learn.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:26.189)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (24:34.357)
I think, okay, fine. If they don't send you something about their disability, if they don't send you something about what they need, you as a manager can create a really safe space with all of your team members by asking things like, how do you prefer to receive feedback? How do you prefer to communicate? How do you like to learn? Those are all accommodations. Those are all ways to personalize something for somebody to make them more successful. And they're easy.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:50.606)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:57.176)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (25:03.767)
It's a low lift, it's a conversation. But if I know that you are somebody who likes to receive feedback verbally, right after something happens, I know I'm not gonna send you a Slack message that says, hey, let me give you some feedback.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:20.654)
Or can we talk? I know. Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (25:22.771)
Or, hey, can we talk? And then my heart rate is through the roof and my stomach's in my ass, right? I don't need any of that. And so I think we just have to be conscious and part of a manager's job is to educate themselves on how to show up. Sorry, you can't, like I'm done with this. I'm a manager, I don't have enough time. I haven't been trained. I haven't been any of this. Well, you're in that position and you have people depending on you.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:38.37)
Yes. Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (25:52.597)
And part of your role as a manager is to manage your team member's success. And part of managing their success is showing up in ways that they need you to show up. So if your company isn't training you on how to show up, you got to figure out how to show up. Go ask ChatGPT. Go say, hey, ChatGPT, how should I onboard my team member in a way that makes them feel safe? What are some questions I can ask on the first day?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:07.662)
Mm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (26:21.921)
We're just not doing it. Like we're making the choice to not do it because it's not a revenue generating task, right? don't even get me started.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:26.221)
Hmm.
No, except it is because yes, ma'am, because and I love we've talked about this too is so cool because you come from a very different sector than I come from, where, in the nonprofit public higher ed sector, revenue is not always the goal, although in fundraising, it's definitely part of it. But it's such a different outcome that we're looking for. And yet everybody seems equally
Greer Procich (she/her) (26:47.457)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:57.982)
not great at training managers, not great at treating people as individuals, not as a whole, sorry, I just made a mic noise, a whole group of people. And it's so expensive for anyone, any company, any organization, any, I don't care what you are, it is expensive to lose employees. And yet we choose to take the time to spend on, if we're gonna do a training, it's either,
Greer Procich (she/her) (27:03.115)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:26.892)
because we're required to do it or because it will make us more money or make our fundraisers better fundraisers. yes, it's all about box checking. I think I talked about this, I don't know, in one of the episodes where it's like, you take the asbestos training and then you can prove that there's asbestos in your walls, right? Which is very common in higher ed, because these buildings are ancient. But you don't ever get that unique tailored coaching or
Greer Procich (she/her) (27:31.401)
or it checks the boxes, or it checks the box.
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (27:44.801)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:54.73)
management training program that is really going to help you become a better manager.
Greer Procich (she/her) (27:59.795)
And we know that's how adults learn. adults don't learn like children. Adults learn differently, right? Like children go through the theory and then they understand it by getting their hands on it. And there's so many different ways that children learn. Adults tell, show, do, review. Keep that in your mind. That's what they need. They need to be told how to do it. They need to be shown how to do it. Then they need to actually do it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:02.53)
Yes!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:23.127)
I love that.
Greer Procich (she/her) (28:30.453)
And then the review is give them feedback immediately. Get it, go, go. And if you think about it, that's on an individual basis, right? They're not doing it and being reviewed as a group. Do it as the individual. And so I think we've got to think about, okay, maybe we only have the budget to do one huge session, a training session, an hour long training session with all of our managers. That's all we have the space to do. Great.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:33.175)
Yes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:44.503)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (28:58.561)
but maybe what you can do to follow up is have HRBPs set goals individually with each manager about how they want to implement what they learned in that training, right? What we're doing is we're doing a one and done. We're saying here, go to this session, hear it, don't interact with it at all, and then master it because you were told what to do, right? Telling is not training. Telling is not training. And that's how we treat a lot of this kind of stuff. And so...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:07.534)
Mm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (29:28.479)
we've got to really think about individualization, meeting people. Like we talk in HR all the time about moments that matter. Like what a buzzword, what a nice buzzword of what does the person need at what specific point in time? And then we identify them and then we do nothing with them. We do nothing with them. The employee journey that we have mapped out and the employee experience and all of this, it's just like, well, we did the work, but now we're not holding anything accountable. And so I think
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:35.845)
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:45.058)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (29:56.661)
with a lot of stuff that we see in HR, there's really no accountability to it being done well or people kind of internalizing what they've learned and then applying it. Until things are attached to people's money, nothing's gonna change.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:15.374)
Okay, so now we're gonna get into it because you talked about this last time we talked and you and I have very similar feelings about performance management. So you said review was the last of all of those things. I think most of the places I've worked are just God awful at performance management and not for the lack of HR trying to do it, but it's when everybody is having to be treated exactly the same.
Greer Procich (she/her) (30:19.648)
You
Greer Procich (she/her) (30:35.393)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (30:43.519)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:43.822)
And just like you were saying earlier, as if they learn the same, as if they read the same, as if they react to feedback the same, it's all the exact same thing. And there is no safeguard against surprising people at their performance review. It's often for many of us the only time we get feedback, which is totally not okay. So you have some thoughts about tying it to comp somehow? me more.
Greer Procich (she/her) (30:51.415)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (31:11.671)
I I think that if a manager goes through the performance review cycle and they're not promoting anybody or, you know, they're giving everybody threes or there's a couple underperformers, that's a reflection on the manager.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:27.182)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (31:28.799)
Right? So, and to me that says that there's something missing, something about what success looks like. Maybe there's resources missing, maybe it's just information that's missing. I don't know. But the leader has to be held accountable for their team's performance. And I think a lot of times we see that the other way, right? The team member is failing because they're not set up to succeed and they're blamed for it. And then they get managed out when in reality, I just needed
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:52.309)
them. Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (31:57.269)
visibility into what was happening in this other meeting, or I needed to be able to have access to the senior leader or whatever it is, right? Maybe I need a different tool to be able to actually automate the process that I'm doing. There's so many things that go into the success of a program that I don't think that we really think about what role people play in it, especially managers.
And so again, I'll wrap this all up by saying until managers are taught how to do things well and are held accountable for doing them well, nothing's gonna change. But like at the end of the day, it all starts at the C-suite level. So if the CEO is giving their team members their direct reports, shitty feedback, non-impactful feedback, it's not coming consistently or in a timely way, it's not something that's actionable.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:33.592)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (32:50.903)
That's the kind of feedback that they're going to give their team members and it's going to trickle all the way down. So if we don't get the CEOs and the C-suite on board, don't do it. Just don't do it. Kind of thing is my thought process. You're wasting everybody's time. You're ruining morale and it's a time suck, right? I've been at places where we used to call it a denial of service for performance reviews because so many managers had 12, 13, 14 reports.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:55.246)
Mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:04.832)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (33:20.299)
that they couldn't do anything else except give feedback. And so what's coming out of that? Sure, comp ratings, fine, but you should know where team members are at throughout the year to know where their comp ratings are gonna be. This is something that you should always know where you're being rated at. And so yeah, I think we do have kind of surprises at the end of the year a lot of times because managers aren't prioritizing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:22.392)
Yep. Yep.
Greer Procich (she/her) (33:48.619)
performance or feedback because their leaders aren't and so on and so on and so on.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:53.516)
Yeah, there's this, it all goes back to the hustle and the grind and the not training, but there's so much work to be done. There's so much urgency around the work. It's not all urgent, we know that. And it's so reactive, especially when you're in, I mean, hospitality, advancement, where the customer, the client, the donor, the alum is always your first priority.
Greer Procich (she/her) (34:05.418)
Mm-mm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (34:23.159)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:23.234)
So if somebody's making a fuss about something and they're a high level donor, our instinct in higher ed is to hop too and figure that's the emergency, even though it's one person causing an emergency and impacting everybody else. But all of that leads to this incredible trickle down of nobody being able to do performance management well. And I'll say, cause I like to keep it honest on here, when you first said that,
Greer Procich (she/her) (34:30.38)
Yep.
Greer Procich (she/her) (34:35.543)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:53.39)
it's the manager's responsibility. I'm like, yes. And then in the back of my mind, I'm like, but also like, what if the person isn't happy or, you know, it's their fault and blah, blah. But you're totally right because I've had teams where a few people have left and I do not want to admit that that is my responsibility. And that's why I want to say it here because there might be people listening who feel the same way. It sucks. I...
Greer Procich (she/her) (35:02.655)
It's the manager's responsibility.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:20.114)
I really like to be liked and that's a whole other conversation for a whole other podcast. you know, it's a really important thing to come to terms with it. If you're in charge of this team, then you're also responsible for their steam. You're responsible for the outcomes. And I love that you said that because it pushed me even now, even when I don't have a team anymore to be like,
Greer Procich (she/her) (35:42.263)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:44.27)
You know, I to really like, you got to get uncomfortable with that before you can start making changes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (35:45.473)
Yeah, well, you know, we all...
Greer Procich (she/her) (35:50.817)
We all have egos and we are in some points driven by pride, right? And so to acknowledge that you have a team member who isn't succeeding, you probably have to acknowledge that you're at fault in some ways for that. And so it's so much easier as a manager to just say, this isn't a fit, this isn't a job fit, their skills aren't matching or whatever it is. When in reality the managers,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:52.739)
Yes, we do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:57.55)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:06.818)
Mm-hmm
Greer Procich (she/her) (36:20.289)
probably just not taking the time or the effort to really explain what success looks like. I was working with a company one time where we kind of had this problem. And it was, do team members even know what success looks like? Could they even articulate it? And so what we did is we actually ran an exercise where independently, the manager and the team member just bullet pointed, this is what success looks like in this role. Independently.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:48.238)
Wow.
Greer Procich (she/her) (36:50.209)
and then they came together, had a conversation, and then reset goals off of that conversation.
It's intentional alignment. That's really all it comes down to is if you take the minute to have the conversation, to do the exercise, to get alignment, great. That's where you gotta start. Because if you're starting on two different pages, you're never gonna be on the same page.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:58.83)
Mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:08.814)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:13.784)
Mm-mm. my gosh. And it's so common.
Greer Procich (she/her) (37:19.713)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, because we're also.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:21.132)
You know, like just sitting here listening to you, it's like that makes sense, but yet none of us do it.
Greer Procich (she/her) (37:26.443)
But I think we also have to admit that not only are we setting individuals up to fail, we're setting managers up to fail. And so like, especially middle managers, oof, right? Like we're giving them, it's the autonomy without authority kind of thing. We're doing that all the time with especially middle managers. And so it's like, we're gonna hold you accountable for the outcomes and the results, but we're not gonna give you.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:32.853)
We really are, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:42.764)
Ooh, I like that. That's true too.
Greer Procich (she/her) (37:52.949)
the authority to make the decisions or to have the conversations or get the resources that you need in order for this to be successful. So you're going to get blamed if it doesn't work, but you also get the credit if it goes well. But if it doesn't go well, that's on you.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:09.238)
Mm-hmm, that's on you. yeah, I love that, autonomy without authority. Because those middle managers, think, that is the hardest place to be. You're being squeezed from both sides and you're not high enough to get all of the information. So you don't necessarily know what's going on or why decisions are being made. But you're not supposed to, and I'm supposed to, be transparent about that with your.
Greer Procich (she/her) (38:33.811)
No!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:38.026)
staff, you're supposed to make it look like everything's hunky dory. And then you get into this awful cycle of, gosh, I've been there. It's so hard. And your team sees through that. You know, they're like, this is not something is going on and this is bad. And they really respect you when you can be transparent with them, you know.
Greer Procich (she/her) (38:48.791)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (38:56.855)
Well, I think what you're nailing is psychological safety, right? It's psychological safety of trust and transparency and authenticity and showing up genuine. And I think we see that leaders that do that have much different outcomes than leaders that don't, right? I'll never forget, was sitting at my, I was making dinner one night and I just had to compute my computer open and I was listening to an all hands of a company I was at.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:00.662)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:08.418)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (39:25.013)
And my partner walks in and he goes, what is this propaganda that you're listening to? And I was just like, it's the All Hands. it's like knowing where the company was at versus what they were saying in the All Hands is it was not matching whatsoever. And so they're trying to force this positive morale or whatever you want to call it onto the employees. And it's like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:44.363)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (39:53.643)
You hired a bunch of adults. Like, we can sniff this shit out. Yeah, right? And like, I see through this and I know that this isn't where we're at right now. So why is this what we're trying to sell? Like, are we trying to convince ourselves that this is where we're at? Because I don't feel psychologically safe at all if we're just kind of trying to like force an ideal down somebody's throat.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:56.6)
Grownups, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:08.875)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:17.486)
Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh, yeah. And I've been so guilty of that in the past. It took me a while to learn that that actually doesn't make people feel better when you pretend everything's okay.
Greer Procich (she/her) (40:27.711)
Mm-mm. But if you think about it, that's what we've been conditioned to do. We've been conditioned to have toxic positivity, when in reality we know that that's just a morale buster. And so we've gotta be honest. We're all working towards the same goal, right? We're all owners.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:32.747)
It is. Yeah.
Bleurgh. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:48.238)
There were some air quotes there, everyone.
Greer Procich (she/her) (40:48.875)
That bullshit. so if we, yeah. Yeah, and so if you're gonna tell me these things and you're gonna hold me accountable to it, tell me what's actually happening. Let me be able to show up in an informed way or let me be able to say, hey, this is what I heard in the all hands and here's a solution to that that I think we could consider. But if you're going and it's rainbows and unicorns,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:03.71)
Oof. Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (41:17.687)
That's going to stifle creativity and innovation because you're telling us everything is good.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:23.308)
You bet, you bet. And it gets so much better when you stop doing that. But it's scary. It can be scary because it's like, I'm going to look weak or they're going to think I don't know what I'm doing or I don't have the answer. That's a role we also are supposed to take as a manager is that you can fix it all. And the fix it mentality is big, especially among us white women.
Greer Procich (she/her) (41:30.775)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (41:47.671)
Yep, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:53.838)
a good conversation to be having. And I'm hopeful that if you're listening to this and you're a manager, just take a little bit of time to think about what your practices are. And again, we're not here to shame or blame or any of that because I'm looking right at Greer and telling her that I have done a lot of those things and learned that they weren't good, you know, but, and, that's okay. You know, no one's saying you have, again, perfectionism is going to eat you alive if you stick with it, which many of us are.
Greer Procich (she/her) (42:11.285)
We all have. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:23.224)
condition to do on top of everything else. So it's this perfect cycle where, yes, because we can be.
Greer Procich (she/her) (42:26.865)
Mm-hmm. But it's also complacency. There's so much complacency. Well, it is. And there's a lot of, well, I can't impact that or I can't make a change. So I'm going to just keep going when in reality, you can show up just a little bit differently and it could make a huge impact on somebody and you don't realize it. Right. Like you, as my manager could just say, hey, how many spoons do you have today?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:36.693)
Exactly.
Greer Procich (she/her) (42:55.061)
I would scream, cry, throw up with happiness if a manager asked me that, right? To say like, how are you comfortable showing up today? I know you've told me that you're having a bad pain flare. How are you feeling? What can I do to support you? That would blow my mind. And then to say, is there anything I can take off your plate? My God, what does that mean? I don't even know what that means, right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:58.316)
Hehehehehe
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:17.676)
What?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:24.44)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (43:24.447)
So I think we've just got to be, it doesn't have to be a huge step. It doesn't have to be a huge step. It can be really little things that can be impactful. Couple of things. It's okay to get it wrong. Two, like you shouldn't not take an action or try and improve something because you're scared of doing it wrong. That's part of learning. That's part of growing. I still get it wrong all the time. You know, I say constantly, I live with a disability, but that doesn't make me an expert on disability.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:29.454)
Mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:36.866)
Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (43:55.413)
Right? And so we've got to be able to show up that way. We've also got to be open to learning, open to change, open to growth, always.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:05.708)
love that. And often what I say to my clients is the first step is noticing. It really is. It's sort of like once you see you can't unsee, it's true. And so listening to these kinds of conversations, having these kinds of conversations, or even just noticing your responses to certain things. So an employee comes to you and says, I have to take a day off for mental health. What's your response to that internally? Because
I bet your response externally is like, absolutely, do what you need. But internally, are you like, yes, cool, they need that? Or are you like, is it really mental health or did they go to a concert last night? I don't know. But who cares? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (44:41.239)
Exactly, who cares? Who cares? Who cares? I could not care less on why somebody needs a day off.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:52.16)
Or if they're working at eight in the morning or not. I don't care when you work. I don't care. And this culture right now is like, I can't reach so-and-so online. What are they doing? And it's like, probably mowing their lawn. I don't know, but they're not working. They're getting their work done, so who cares?
Greer Procich (she/her) (44:56.735)
No, an-
Greer Procich (she/her) (45:02.891)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (45:10.451)
Exactly, and we know the science of play and how important it is to take a break and do all of those things, but companies expect you to show up at 100 % 100 % of the time. And that's never going to happen. We're humans, isn't that part like the variable part of being a human is the day to day is different and we have to react differently and show up differently based on what's in front of us, right? I think that's a unique part of our experience and
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:13.759)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:24.417)
No!
Greer Procich (she/her) (45:40.457)
So if you're expecting me to be at my best every single day and then penalize me when I'm not, I could tell you some CEOs and some high level leaders that I know didn't show up as their best every single day and nothing happened to them. Right? So it's a, it's a power thing. This is all comes down to power. There's a concentrated amount of power at the top and the further away you get from that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:00.088)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:06.254)
the less power you have.
Greer Procich (she/her) (46:07.563)
The less power you have, the less autonomy you have, the less ownership you have, and the more likely you are to be blamed when something goes wrong.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:14.862)
I don't like hearing that, but it's so true.
Greer Procich (she/her) (46:15.669)
Mm-hmm. And then it's going to impact your performance and your comp.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:19.434)
It is, of course, of course. A few sentences ago, you said something about bringing 100 % to work. And it just made me think, you only have 100 % on any given day. And most of us have a lot of other things that are pulling our percentages. And why should work think? It should get all of you or most of you. You are there to do a job. Yes, yes ma'am. Go do your job, get paid for it. Sure, we get it. There's an exchange of...
Greer Procich (she/her) (46:35.319)
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (46:48.905)
It's a contract. There's a contract saying this is what we're going to pay you to do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:49.102)
capital, it's a contract. Yes. And this is what you do. And it's getting fuzzier and fuzzier what people do. It's getting fuzzier. It is fuzzy what they're held accountable for, what's their fault, what's not, what is in their performance review, what's not. And that cycle just keeps perpetuating. So I like the idea of spoons or even one of my other guests, Kyle, and I were talking about your battery indicator light.
Greer Procich (she/her) (47:16.631)
Yeah. Yes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:17.92)
Is it all green or are you in the yellow or are you in the like sad red where you're like, God, I need to find a plug immediately.
Greer Procich (she/her) (47:24.959)
Yeah, and that's great, and I think it doesn't matter what metaphor you use, whatever resonates with your team, and if you apply it equally, it'll be huge. It's a common language. That's creating a common language on your team around capacity. It is, it's really important. But the important part is, is that somebody shows up and says, my battery's on low, and then you respond, how can I support you? What do you need?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:30.78)
yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:37.366)
Yeah, that's so important. That's so important.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:49.228)
Yeah. Yes.
Greer Procich (she/her) (47:51.243)
That's where it all changes because if you're just gonna ask me if my battery is low and then be like, cool, go have fun on your seven meetings this afternoon and make sure you get that email done and don't forget about that spreadsheet that has to be updated. You don't care about my spoons. Cool, yeah, and then Monday I'm gonna come back and my brain's gonna explode because all of the same work and deadlines are there.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:00.184)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:06.338)
Yeah. but take Friday off.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greer Procich (she/her) (48:18.559)
And I wasn't able to rest on the weekend because I was so stressed out knowing that no one was going to take care of
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:24.3)
my husband and I have started doing this thing. I think it's a Brene Brown thing originally, but we've got a lot going on right now. Like his mom is sick, she's living with us. There's, he's doing a lot of care that we weren't expecting in our lives. He's a type one diabetic. He has a disability that he lives with every day. Plus we have a kid and all the other things, right? So what we, he's been doing is coming home and saying, much, how much do you have? And you give a percentage. And I really, it's been super helpful because he's like,
Greer Procich (she/her) (48:42.422)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:52.79)
I'm at like 10 % right now. And then I can say, okay, I'm at like 40. So we're not in a great place because it doesn't add up to 100. So maybe let's not mow the lawn tonight. I don't know why I'm so obsessed with mowing the lawn today on this podcast, but who cares if our kitchen's not clean?
Greer Procich (she/her) (48:54.571)
Yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (49:02.463)
Yes, you know, yeah.
Greer Procich (she/her) (49:07.734)
Yes!
Greer Procich (she/her) (49:11.667)
Yeah, I mean, that's what my husband does. I'm so lucky to have him support me, because he'll come up to me and like, do you really have the spoons to do the dishes right now?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:19.812)
Ohhhh...
Greer Procich (she/her) (49:21.683)
He's best. Find yourself a mic. I could not, I couldn't get through living with a disability and being an employee without my husband. And so I'm lucky to have a support system, but not everybody else's. And so I think I have somebody who hold me accountable to my spoons, but not everybody has that. And so.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:40.622)
And you're your own worst enemy a lot of the time.
Greer Procich (she/her) (49:43.327)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I think being able to check in with yourself, drawing back to those boundaries and saying, all right, these are the spoons and this is how I can feasibly realistically show up today. Stick hard to it. Stick hard to that boundary.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:59.736)
I love that. Okay, we will. Yes, ma'am. I wanna talk a little bit before we're done. I can't believe we're almost done. I could talk for so much longer. Tell me a little bit about Rethinkability and the Performance Innovation Collective. You're doing some really great stuff, some really awesome free programming. So tell us about it and how people can get involved.
Greer Procich (she/her) (50:19.061)
Yeah, so we have kicked off a virtual free open event that we're going to be holding the third week of July called Rethinkability. It's focused on bringing accessibility and visibility of disability into workplaces. And so what we've done is we've put together a absolutely wonderful steering committee of individuals who are doing the work, who are advocates.
who really want to see the workplace change to help us identify. We've got 14 different learning session topics that we're going to be doing. Everything from intersectionality to being an accomplice as a white woman, to creating a common language, to the business case for it. So we've got a bunch of learning that we're going to do. It's going to be all free. And every single session that we do will end with a resource. So the goal is you leave a session, you do something then.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:54.018)
Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:59.822)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:12.558)
Nice. Wow.
Greer Procich (she/her) (51:14.987)
You can make an immediate impact because accessibility doesn't have to be complicated, right? Everything from there will then live with Jen Lurie and the Equitable HR Guild. They've got a wonderful group of information that they're putting out constantly. So even if you don't follow us, go follow Jen. And so everything will live with Jen. And we right now are working on some fundraising as well for organizations that are doing the work. So really trying to...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:39.19)
Nice.
Greer Procich (she/her) (51:43.903)
identify that I have to create the space that I need to be successful in and no one's gonna do it for me. And so as an individual with a disability, that doesn't mean I can't do it. So watch me. Watch me and my disabled friends put something amazing together to make workplaces better. That's what we're doing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:56.374)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:01.526)
Yes, I love that. And I love that it's free. I mean, that's really, it's such a barrier for so many people. There's lots of resources out there that cost a lot of money. So this is awesome. And it's virtual, right?
Greer Procich (she/her) (52:10.837)
Yeah, but those, it's virtual, it'll be online, it'll be completely accessible, so we're gonna be doing a lot of work to ensure that we have sign language interpreters and wonderful transcription and all of that kind of stuff. you know, we really wanna show it's not that hard. If you're intentional about the impact, you could do it. You're choosing not to do it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:27.266)
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:33.526)
If you are listening, you need to go to this. And if you are in an organization, a company, you should tell everyone to go to this because, my gosh, a free training, especially right now when a lot of us have Pro-D budgets that are dwindling because of everything that's happening. So I love this so much. I'll put, we'll definitely put links to all of that in the show notes so that you can sign up. Do you have a place where people can donate if they want to?
Greer Procich (she/her) (53:02.295)
So right now I am looking for a 501c3 fiscal sponsor. Hi, let's talk about that. Okay, so once we have that, then our goal will be to raise funds from sponsorships for each of our sessions. We'll probably have an opportunity for individuals to donate as well, but it's all TBD, all in the works. are...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:08.414)
I used to work at one. I know all about that.
Greer Procich (she/her) (53:29.161)
making progress every day, but it's a lot of work. And so we are doing a lot of things in parallel, but I'm announcing everything in LinkedIn as we go. you're more than welcome to follow along there.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:40.172)
Yeah, please follow Greer. She's so much fun on LinkedIn and spicy in the best way. This has been so fun. I, again, could talk forever. And I think these are some really, really great resources to share with the audience. And I really hope if you're listening, you're going to take some time and think about all of this. This is the last question. It's the fun one. just because I like to prove that people are human, and that's why I like to ask this question.
If you were going to give a TED talk on something other than your work, however you define that, what would it be on?
Greer Procich (she/her) (54:14.418)
I would say probably on how to kill plants that are meant to not be killed.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:27.436)
This is ironic because in her background you can see a plant lady like pot.
Greer Procich (she/her) (54:31.211)
I know, but you can also, but you can also in the background see how that one's dying. All of them are dying. But they, yeah, they're really brown and they're pathos and they're pretty impossible to kill. But hey, if you need a tutor on how to kill succulents and things like that, I gotcha, I gotcha.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:35.63)
yeah, those are real brown.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:43.298)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:52.083)
no, have you figured out any of them or any of them live thriving?
Greer Procich (she/her) (54:55.635)
I have a, yes, I have a rubber tree that I've had for probably six years. She's taller than me. I know. So I don't know what I did with that one, but I obviously didn't apply the same principles to all of my other plants. But if you need to keep a rubber tree alive, I can help you, but anything else is just off the table.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:00.056)
Those are hardy. Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:11.063)
Yup.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:17.614)
man, well good luck to the trees and the trees, the plants in your life. I hope that they get the nourishment they need, but I love that because I'm sure a lot of people resonate. I only keep things alive. My mom is really good with plants, so she's like my plant doctor. So when I am killing a plant, I give it to her. She nurses it back to health and then I get it back and then I slowly kill it again and then I give back to her again. you know, so she knows.
Greer Procich (she/her) (55:24.727)
Thank you.
Greer Procich (she/her) (55:39.339)
Yep, yep, my mom has a flower shop, so this is not good. This is not good, so this isn't good. It's not good, I didn't get the gene.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:47.424)
I love it. Well, Greer, where can people reach you? What's your LinkedIn handle and anything else?
Greer Procich (she/her) (55:53.429)
My LinkedIn handle is just my name, Greer Prosich. I am wildly active on LinkedIn, so if you ever want to get in touch, ping me there and we'll set up time to talk. I will talk to anybody and everybody because you never know how we can help each other and amplify the work that we're doing. So get in touch. Let's chat. I love to chat.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:13.612)
I love that. And I'm an absolute example of that. I just slid into your DMs and was like, we should be friends.
Greer Procich (she/her) (56:17.781)
Yes!
Exactly. Yes. This 2025 is the year of community and the year of reaching out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:25.312)
Yes, that's our resistance. We build community. That's how we resist. I love it. Well, Greer, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. And I hope everyone enjoyed, and we look forward to seeing you soon.
Greer Procich (she/her) (56:36.929)
Thanks for having me, this was wonderful. Bye.
About Greer Procich:
Greer is a people operations leader with a passion for building equitable, feedback-driven workplaces. With backgrounds in hospitality and technology, Greer helps organizations create scalable talent strategies that prioritize transparency, accountability, and employee growth. She believes that effective people practices should be simple, human-centric, and designed with the end user in mind. Greer is a disability advocate, leading the free, virtual event in July called "Rethink Ability."
