Episode 29: On Wednesdays We Hype Women with Erin Gallagher

Oct 8

What happens when we stop competing, start hyping, and refuse to abandon ourselves.

A unapologetically honest conversation about patriarchy, “mean girls,” unpaid labor, and how jealousy is showing you something you want.

Summary

What does it take to stop abandoning ourselves in the name of service, selflessness, or keeping the peace? In this electric episode of Hard at Work, Ellen sits down with Erin Gallagher—author of Hype Women: Breaking Free From Mean Girls, Patriarchy and Systems Silencing You and founder of the Hype Women movement—to talk about unlearning the systems that pit women against each other and coming back to ourselves. They dig into toxic workplace dynamics, how patriarchy and capitalism shape our friendships, and the invisible labor women carry at work and home. Erin shares how turning 40, setting boundaries, and facing her anger changed everything. From Jamie Lee Curtis to book deals to mom guilt, this episode is real, raw, and radically validating. If you’ve ever been burned by a mean girl or told you were "too much," this one’s for you.

Takeaways

Hype requires action. Admiration is passive; hype is an active decision to invest, support, and amplify other women—financially, socially, or otherwise.
Mean girl energy thrives in scarcity. When we’re conditioned to compete, we see other women's wins as losses. Naming this is the first step to unlearning it.
Conditioning isn't your fault, but it's your responsibility. We can't always control how we were taught to think, but we can choose what to do with it now.
Anger is data. Suppressing resentment doesn't make it go away. Erin suggests using creative outlets to release it from your body—writing, art, music, or screaming in the car.
Not everyone grows with you. As you shift, your circle might too. Pay attention to who roots for you when you're both shiny and struggling.

Notable Quotes

"I will no longer abandon myself in service to others."

"If you are told an ugly lie enough times, you believe it's the truth."

"Your jealousy is pointing to desire. Pay attention to what it’s trying to show you."

"The only way out isn't through. The only way out is in."

"You don't have to carry it forever. You just have to let it move through you."

Chapters

00:00 - Welcome + Erin's introduction
01:20 - What is a hype woman?
05:09 - The origin of the Hype Women movement
10:25 - Jamie Lee Curtis and going viral
13:00 - Mean girls, manipulation, and unlearning
17:18 - Leaving old roles, friendships, and systems
21:24 - Shame, people pleasing, and reclaiming power
24:11 - Conditioning vs. choice: the internal mean girl
28:31 - Jealousy, envy, and radical honesty
33:13 - Desire as data: the keynote example
36:16 - Unpaid labor, burnout, and boundaries
38:34 - Resentment and writing it out
43:41 - Releasing anger creatively
46:30 - What resonated most from the book?
49:52 - Where to find Erin + how to preorder Hype Women

Keywords: burnout, mean girls at work, workplace boundaries, emotional labor, hype women, women in leadership, people pleasing, patriarchy in the workplace, toxic work culture, women supporting women, jealousy at work, unlearning competition, resentment at work, Erin Gallagher, Ellen Whitlock Baker

Show Notes

Hype Women by Erin Gallagher (Book)
Erin's upcoming book Hype Women: Breaking Free from Mean Girls, Patriarchy and Systems Silencing You, releasing October 14, 2025. Available for preorder here.
Erin Gallagher’s Substack – Erin for Equity
Erin’s current writing and newsletter platform after stepping back from LinkedIn.

Transcript

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01.82)

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Hard at Work podcast. I cannot tell you how excited I am to have Erin Gallagher on today's podcast. Welcome Erin.

Erin Gallagher (00:20.258)

Aloha, Ellen. Aloha, we'll explain what that's all about. Girl, I'm so proud of you. mean, the journey that I have witnessed and seen you go on the past few years and that you took this idea and you actually made it happen. You so effortlessly just said, hello, this is Ellen and it's another episode. It's like, yes, but this was an idea in your brain that you could have done nothing with.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:21.596)

Aloha!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:28.161)

thank you.

Erin Gallagher (00:49.619)

And so I think it's always really important to mark the moment of an individual who takes an idea and does something.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:54.324)

Mm-hmm.

my gosh, I love that. Thank you. I'm just gonna have you on all the time now to make me feel good about myself. What an example of hyping women. Look at that. we should later, we'll tell the story of how we met because I think it's a good story for everyone about how women connecting. But first, let's give everybody, what do you want everyone to know? Your 60 second Wikipedia, Who is Erin?

Erin Gallagher (01:20.75)

I am an author, a two-time founder and CEO. My company is called Hype Women, and the work that I do is hyping women to heal herself. And I do this through a multitude of ways. One is through fairway dinners, of which I've done 33 now over the course of three years in 10 cities for 1,500 women. We've increased our collective wealth by more than $33 million.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:43.465)

Wow.

Erin Gallagher (01:50.722)

I've done this through my podcast that has 23 episodes and we've been on a bit of a hiatus and we'll be sort of relaunching again soon, but that hiatus was because I just wrote a book which is coming out October 14th, 2025, Hype Women, Breaking Free from Mean Girls, Patriarchy and Systems, Silencing You. And so, you know, I feel like I have a couple of ways that I am trying to do the work that I believe

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:03.036)

You did.

Erin Gallagher (02:20.8)

I am here on this planet at this point in time to have impact around. And those are the ways that I have found connecting with women to be the most authentic and genuine and powerful.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:37.802)

I love that. I love your book. So I've read the book. It's very exciting. It's like my first advanced copy I ever got as a podcast host.

Erin Gallagher (02:45.758)

I mean, how exciting is that? It's like, it's just a real, like you feel like you're kind of in this like underground club. It's very, it's very fancy and very exciting. And so Ellen, the other thing is you are the first podcast host that I am speaking with who has read my book where we will talk about it. And I am, I am like, I am giddy and it's

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:53.822)

Very fancy.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:05.083)

Woohoo!

my God, I got goosebumps.

Erin Gallagher (03:15.404)

The here's the giddiness. The giddiness is I wanna know like, I wanna know what you think. I wanna know what resonated. I wanna know what sort of helped you look at something from a different angle. That's what I'm excited about. It's not to say here are the things that I had the intention of writing the book to get across. It's like, my God, I can't believe that you have consumed this labor of love that was in my head.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:40.049)

You

Erin Gallagher (03:44.31)

and that we now get to discuss what it did.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:47.826)

And how like, I have to I'm so impressed. I think about writing a book from time to time and I love books like this. And one of the reasons why I've always loved you, I followed you on LinkedIn before I reached out to say hello, is because Erin is unapologetic and she tells the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And I love that about her because it's something I feel really simpatico with. And I loved this book because of that. So the book is a really beautiful,

It's a really beautiful combination of like narrative stories, this sort of like poetic cadence of how you write. And then also practical tips. It's a really cool combination of all of the things. And one of the reasons why I started this podcast is because I'm super tired of reading books by white men for white men in the business sector. God bless you for not being one of them. And I felt like, you know.

as a 45-year-old woman, the book was written for me. So I really, I loved it from start to finish. And it was such a good read. So everyone, you will love it. But I wanted to know, let's talk about before we get into the book, why is Hype Women so important to you? And maybe even explain the start of the movement, because I'm not sure everybody knows your famous connection to Jamie Lee Curtis and how it started the movement.

Erin Gallagher (05:09.23)

Yes. know, hype women, this idea, and the way that I would define it is hype women is a noun and a verb. So you can be hype women. You can be a woman who hypes other women, who celebrates other women's successes, who amplifies other women's work, who invests in other women with your human social, financial, and political capital.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:18.25)

Mm-hmm

Erin Gallagher (05:36.578)

You know, those are the attributes of a person, of a woman who is that. But it also is a verb that anyone can participate in, regardless of gender. And the action piece is the critical differentiator between being a passive fan or passive admirer and an active hyper. It really doesn't matter how many people sit in their homes and

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:45.388)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:57.008)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (06:06.228)

look at an Instagram post and think, I love the dresses that this woman makes. If you don't convert that hype into something that is active, that uses the capital that you have, it isn't real. when you, are you just sitting there admiring this woman or are you buying her dresses? you, you or sharing her posts?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:12.2)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:25.162)

Mmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:30.794)

Liking her posts even, forwarding.

Erin Gallagher (06:36.162)

Are you commenting on them so that it helps the algorithm? Are you texting your friends and saying, should buy this? I think you would look amazing in this. So that to me is like, that's the real differentiator here. Hype is a very active emotion and responsibility. so being a hype woman has always been inside of me. My whole life I have been

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:43.209)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:52.648)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:01.897)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (07:06.186)

on teams of women as I played competitive soccer and basketball for all of high school, middle school, elementary school, and a little bit of college, not at college, but on intramural teams, then post college on alumni teams. So always with women. I was a Girl Scout in a Brownie. I was in a sorority, which I never thought I would be because I had a lot of sort of

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:22.73)

you

Erin Gallagher (07:36.942)

maybe unfair, stereotypical thoughts about what sororities were. And the only reason I even rushed at University of Michigan was so that I could have fodder to talk shit about them. I was like, I want to get on the inside of this. And then I was like, oh fuck, I fell in love with these women. Because they were athletes, they were women who.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:44.254)

Same.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:54.004)

Get on the inside, yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:58.875)

Ha ha!

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (08:03.854)

who celebrate each other and care about each other. And I was like, I don't have a team anymore. This is actually maybe something that I need as I transition out of being a part of smaller groups of women and then going to a massive university. So that stayed with me and that continued. And then I founded my first company called Have Her Back, which was focused specifically on women and going into corporate America and helping them change their practices and their policies to

to actually make it possible for women to thrive in those environments. And then now my current company, Ella, that just hit her three year anniversary, fully dedicated to helping women for, you know, the first two and a half years were really about helping women do business together. Because I felt that when women had more money and were in positions of power and influence that we would have a better world. I still believe that, but.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:44.138)

Woohoo!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:00.884)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (09:00.908)

what has evolved over this time is me realizing that the healing of women and the helping women to heal themselves is the more sustainable, impactful, long-term work that I'm actually meant to be doing. So, hype women has just been in me, but I didn't use the term until...

I saw this picture on January 10th, 2023. And it was a picture of Jamie Lee Curtis, now Oscar winning actress, celebrating Michelle Yeoh, who was nominated right before that moment for best actress in her role of Everything Everywhere All at Once at the Golden Globes. And she won.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:40.554)

You

Erin Gallagher (09:56.246)

And so the photo is Jamie celebrating Michelle. And if you had no context, you would think that Jamie had won. That's what it looks like. When you actually get under it and you realize what happened, what led to it, and then what that moment was that was absolute, just the authentic OG hype woman that Jamie is, that it was really her truly celebrating her win.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:06.378)

Yeah, yeah, she's so happy.

Erin Gallagher (10:25.614)

celebrating Michelle's win as if it were her own, I thought to myself, God, we don't see women do this enough. We just don't see women who are not threatened by another woman's power and success and light and don't see a light on her as casting a shadow on herself. And so I just opened my phone and I wrote a post on LinkedIn and said, ladies, this is your vibe for 2023, unabashed hype women.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:41.551)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (10:52.354)

And I went through kind of like with the conditioning and what we have to sort of decide if we want to keep caring with us or if we want to release and how we were going to do it. And I didn't think anything of it. I closed it and went to went to dinner with one of my friends. And the next morning it was everywhere. And part of the reason it was everywhere is that it in its own right on LinkedIn, it went viral, but Jamie Lee Curtis's friend saw it and sent it to her. And then Jamie posted it to her 6 million followers on Instagram. So.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:52.382)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:17.574)

wow.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:21.564)

That'll do it.

Erin Gallagher (11:22.102)

It just kind of this conversation began and it started to show up in mom texts, threads and Facebook chats and on zoom calls and in meetings. And I was getting messages from people I knew and people I didn't know telling me like, Hey, this is, we're really wanting this. We women are looking for this. We're really tired of fighting each other. And we're tired of the women who are, who are being mean.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:45.544)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (11:50.252)

like these mean girls that have grown up to be women that participate in this behavior the same way they did on the playground. So I just, you then took it and ran with it and Jamie and I developed a friendship and have been volleying hype back and forth to each other over the past two years. And so here we are. Yes, so, you know, Jamie penned the forward to my book and that felt very

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:50.527)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:57.63)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:06.878)

Love it. She wrote the intro to your book.

Erin Gallagher (12:20.12)

full circle to from that moment where I wrote about something that she created with her spirit that moved me to something that was doing the same in turn for her.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:21.311)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:29.14)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:35.004)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's such a... So, like, there's so many things we could talk about with the book. I mean, it resonated with me in multiple different ways. But I want to stick with the Mean Girls for a second because... And sort of the hype women slash the other side of the coin, which is the Mean Girls. It was so lovely to hear you sort of voice that because I think it's easy...

to think that the mean girls are right and that you're the problem. And it was the same in high school if you got bullied or if you just had those mean girls. it's so funny how that repeats itself. And it can be at work or it can be your friend group too. I mean, I've been in the mom groups that can be exactly the same way, When did you kind of first realize that the mean girls were actually not right? Or did you always know that?

Erin Gallagher (13:32.086)

did not always know that. I thought I took their criticism as direction.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:33.458)

Right? Okay.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:39.794)

Right, right, because it's also like hidden behind niceness.

Erin Gallagher (13:45.454)

That's right, that's right. And that's a truly effective manipulator is someone who has convinced you that they actually have your back, that they're on your side because you are more likely to believe them and they couch their criticism in a way where they position it as constructive.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:56.402)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:02.399)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (14:12.982)

I'm just trying to help you. I just want you to be better. But really what they're doing is they're making sure that you always know that you're not good enough. So I think that I've had inklings over time that they weren't right, but it's death by a thousand cuts. When you haven't happened enough times, you just, you stop trusting your intuition.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:22.067)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:33.662)

Right.

Erin Gallagher (14:39.938)

You stop believing that what your instinct is telling you, what your gut says about how you feel about a person or a situation. You stop believing that you're right because you're told so often, that's not what I meant. That's not, you're too sensitive. You took it the wrong way. You're all of that though. And you're like, okay, well, thank you for helping me to see what it's really about. And so again, you're like, you seek outside of yourself for

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:53.182)

Mm-hmm.

blah, I hate that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:04.074)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (15:09.24)

for direction and you completely lose your own internal compass. So while I had inklings over time, and I have this line in the book where I say, if you are told a, and I'm not doing it justice because I'm trying to remember it right now, but it's something along the lines of.

If you are told over and over again an ugly lie about yourself, you believe that it's the truth. And then when you are told a beautiful truth that you don't believe, you think it's a lie. So until you write that ship, you will believe the Mean Girls. You will, you will, you'll believe. And so for me, turning 40 just, it just broke something in me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:41.128)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:56.168)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:03.625)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (16:04.462)

It just broke something in me. I kind of just snapped out. was like that moment in the Barbie movie when they bring the brainwashed Barbies into the back of the ambulance. they're like, hey, I know you're a Brewski Beer serving foot rubbing bimbo now, but do you remember that you're also Nobel Prize winning author?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:15.21)

you

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:29.802)

Yep.

Erin Gallagher (16:31.206)

And it just kind of like zing, it comes back. That happened for me. And the phrase that came to me that would not leave me until I paid it the respect it was due was, I will no longer abandon myself in service to others.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:47.124)

God, yeah. I wrote that down. I wrote it down. I was like, we have to say this out loud.

Erin Gallagher (16:48.494)

I mean, phrase summed up my entire operating system, professionally, my family structure, my of my, you know, family accretion and my family of origin. It was all about my service. That is where my value derived. And so if I wasn't in service to others, who was I? And what did I matter?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:58.494)

Mm-hmm

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:11.955)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:16.626)

Yes.

Erin Gallagher (17:18.978)

So Mean Girls love people like me, the version I used to be, because if you are an empathetic people pleaser, you will do whatever it takes to get it done, even if it means abandoning yourself. So I just, when I heard that and I reached that point, I immediately made major shifts in my life that were very difficult.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:21.918)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:32.702)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:36.766)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (17:46.528)

and were not welcomed by everyone and were not comfortable. I left the first company that I co-founded. I started setting really serious boundaries with my family members. I stopped giving access to friends that were one year, five year, 10, 20, 25 year old friends that I started to recognize did one of two things.

And it's gonna sound like a contradiction, but it's not. They were the friends that showed up when I was shiny and advanced with me when I appeared dull. So they loved that things were going well and I was getting attention and accolades and that's when they were there. And then they were poof gone when like there wasn't a lot happening, right? So the people that came out of the woodwork when that post went viral, woof, right? Interesting, very interesting. I always pay attention.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:21.002)

Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:36.265)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:42.334)

Hmm.

Erin Gallagher (18:43.852)

But on the reverse, but similar issue, Ellen, are the people that are only there when you're struggling.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:53.247)

Interesting.

Erin Gallagher (18:54.52)

These are the people that love to see you struggle. Your friendship and your relationship is based on the identity that they're always doing better than you are. And so they like to have you around. Your marriage is having a challenge or two, your kids are having a tough time in school, you're in a fight with your mom, your house is smaller than theirs, your job is not paying as much as they're like,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:07.498)

Mmm.

Erin Gallagher (19:24.202)

They really like that. so when you're doing well, they don't want to be around you anymore. It's really sneaky because like, again, those two things sound like the opposite, but they're not because it's all about like what I have the real audit I've done of my, of the people around me, the people, the places in the programming, really, those are the three things that I'm constantly assessing. The audit I've done is

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:29.482)

Ooh, that's sneaky. That's so sneaky.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:37.759)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (19:54.11)

I've changed, I've grown, who has grown with me and who has stayed with me through this. The people that want me to stay the way that I was, that is a red flag. The people that are upset that I have boundaries because they really benefited from me not having them, that's a red flag. So I just, started to recognize all of that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:55.614)

Mm-hmm

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:59.921)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:09.278)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:17.896)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (20:21.834)

in people and I made some really different choices about who received time and attention from me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:29.276)

Mm, I love that. And obviously that's not gonna happen in one day. I mean, it takes fits and starts and really kind of that, but I think it's that sort of once you see it, you can't unsee it sort of thing, right? it's like, it kind of similarly happened to me too. Once you realize it's not for you or it's not benefiting you and you start to see that.

Like it's everywhere. Then you're like, my God, look at all these things that haven't been benefiting me for so many years. And then there's this weird shame that comes with that, right? Like it's how did I let myself, how did I let myself get here, right? And you talk about that a little bit too. Like what do you do to kind of get yourself through that shame that might inevitably come as you start to realize you've been living a life that's not really yours?

Erin Gallagher (21:24.416)

I mean, the shame kept me quiet for a really long time. I was embarrassed. How did I get this deep in to whatever the situation was? And what I started to, here's the thing that freed me. The thing that freed me from the shame was acknowledging the conditioning. And so.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:26.6)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:47.594)

mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (21:49.582)

It really, really helped me to understand that this wasn't my fault. So when I looked at kind of these friendships, these business relationships, whatever the choices that I was making personally or professionally that had landed me in situations that I really wanted to extricate myself from. When I looked at it, I said, of course I believed the lie.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:56.19)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (22:19.438)

Of course, of course I let them tell me that about myself. I have been conditioned my whole life to be a people pleaser and to not rock the boat and to not be difficult and to just get the job done and to stay the course. And so that was really the language that I used, Ellen, to free women from the shame around the mean girl inside of all of us. I said to them, here's the deal. I have a mean girl inside of me. It's not my fault.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:42.022)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (22:48.46)

I've been conditioned my entire life to see other women as threats and competition and to compare myself to other women and to judge them. That is conditioning. It is the media, our society, our culture. It is insidious. And so it has been drilled into the fabric of my operating system. What you have to decide at a certain point, and this is what happened for me when I turned 40, is how much longer are you going to allow the conditioning

to be in control of your operating system. And so when I would see that a woman had launched a podcast and my first thought was, she launched a podcast? Why did she launch a podcast? Why can't I launch a What about me? Is she really good enough? Why is she getting so much attention? So.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:20.072)

Mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:30.152)

Hehehehehe

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:36.734)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (23:45.386)

So normally you have those feelings and then you dwell on them and you go inward and it festers and you have all of this negative energy and the person takes a ton of space rent free in your head and you actually are producing a lot of cortisol and like it's just an all around bad situation. And then, you know, you probably have another person who's a mean girl in your life that's going, can you believe so and so launched a podcast?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:49.194)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:56.764)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:11.358)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (24:11.694)

So she feeds into that and then you start this kind of narrative. And so what I started to realize was, hold on, that is my conditioning. So I, well, it's not my fault that I have this.

Erin Gallagher (24:29.856)

like conversation, monologue happening inside of my head, it is my responsibility and my opportunity to make a different choice. And so when you do what we just talked about, which is you take the action of hype, you actually rewire your brain. You start to retrain your entire operating system. So instead, when my first inclination is who the fuck does she think she is launching a podcast, guess what I do instead? I post about it. I say,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:36.862)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:46.398)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:57.918)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (24:58.958)

So-and-so has launched a podcast. I'm so proud of her. I'm listening. I hope you subscribe too. I listen to the podcast. I share it with other people. I reach out to her and I celebrate her. Guess what starts to happen? I feel good. I have replaced the cortisol with endorphins. And my body says to me, that's the way that I would like to be instead. And so when you start to do that, you are also showing other women the different behavior.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:03.444)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:13.265)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:27.348)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (25:27.372)

So then when that mean girl comes to you and says, can you believe she launched a podcast? You're ready. Well, I think it's amazing. Have you listened to episode one? my God. And then she goes, no, I haven't. Well, cool, listen to it. Let's talk about it. All of a sudden, ripple effect. So this is a systemic white supremacist patriarchal conditioning of women so that we spend time and energy wasted

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:32.33)

You're like, yes, let's talk about it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:45.578)

Mm.

Erin Gallagher (25:55.222)

trying to take each other down instead of existing and living in abundance out there when the rest of straight white men in the universe are running everything. So this is systemic, it's conditioning, and it's a choice that we have to make.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:03.338)

Yeah. Yep.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:11.144)

I love it. And there was a post that you did, God, it was a little while ago. my gosh, it was so honest and raw about this. was someone else had announced their book. Another woman had announced their book and you were like, well, let me say that I'm super excited for you, but let me tell you, the first thing that came up is, you got with that publisher and they didn't want me. And you were so honest about it. And it made me feel like I could be more honest.

Erin Gallagher (26:22.858)

Maybe. Maybe.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:39.198)

too, and I have been of like, you sometimes my first response is, what? You know, because I'm thinking about, you know, me and not them. No worries.

Erin Gallagher (26:49.354)

Exactly. One second, Ellen. Well, it's not giving me any of the allowance. Hey, guys, I'm going to have multiple opportunities for you to have allowance. OK, so I remember I'm on the podcast. So can you head out? OK, thanks. Can you close the door, love? Thanks. Great. Now my dog is sitting.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:02.122)

You

We love a good mom interruption on this podcast.

Erin Gallagher (27:07.842)

Right, right. He's like, Will said I can't have some allowance because I'm not helping fold the clothes. And I'm like, well, it's also true. Right. I was like, there's plenty of opportunities for me to think of other things that you can do. I don't earn money to buy reptiles, which is where your real goal here is. Yeah, it's great. So, so yes, Ellen, that, that was like, that was one of those moments where I was so ashamed of how I was feeling.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:19.583)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:36.137)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (27:37.376)

And then I could have just kept it to myself because it was kind of embarrassing to admit, right? And also risky because people will be like, she's full of shit. she's a white woman. But I needed to say, you guys, you don't get it. If this isn't clear that I feel this too and that we have the opportunity to change it, then let me give you this example, right? Where Nidhi gets a...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:41.034)

Yeah, of course. It's like you don't want to admit that.

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (28:04.236)

deal with Penguin Random House and my first thought is, Nidhi got Penguin Random House? What the hell? And it was all based on my own shit because I didn't get Penguin Random House. It had nothing to do with her. had nothing to do with the fact that she earned it, she deserved it, she was owed it. It had everything to do with my own rejection. And so, so.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:15.395)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:28.756)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (28:31.594)

it was important for me to tell people, guess what? This happened to me. And I made a different choice. Instead of leaving and being like jealous of her and maybe even envious, which is the difference between jealousy and envy is jealousy is I want what you have envy is I don't want you to have what you have, which is a much darker version of jealous. Right. So instead of either of those things winning out, I

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:39.102)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:50.227)

Ooh.

Erin Gallagher (28:58.154)

I posted about it. said, I hope you're buying this book as soon as it's available on pre-order, I'm going to buy it. Then I shared what I was thinking and then guess what happened? She was like, if we're sharing shit, she said, I was really upset when I saw that you got a good deal. I was like, I'm sorry, what's a good deal? I didn't even know what she was talking about. Based on the advance that you get, there are different terms that talk about the range of money.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:14.25)

Ha ha.

Erin Gallagher (29:27.534)

And so a good deal is 100K and up. And so she knew that I got that and she didn't get that. And so she, although she got Penguin Random House, she was upset that I got the good deal and she admitted it. And I said, okay, how's this going? We're here talking about the stuff that has, doesn't have to do with either of us. And if both of us had kept quiet, I guarantee it would have impacted our friendship. We wouldn't have started to distance ourselves from each other.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:34.372)

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:54.249)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (29:57.216)

Other people would have started to talk shit about each other to us and we would have been a part of that. But instead, we both came in and said, God damn, they almost got us. They almost got us, but they didn't. They didn't. And what's meant for us will happen in the time that it's meant to happen. And we will continue to support each other in getting towards whatever that goal is that's long told.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:06.441)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:18.162)

I love that. We say it's not pie all the time. It's not pie. can't, you know, there's more than a slice for everybody, but it is really astounding to me how much that has impacted how I view other women at this point and how I hype them because especially when you're in a vulnerable place, like I'm starting a new thing. It's super scary. I'm at the beginning of it. So watching people who've been doing it for two plus years, they're doing

much better than I am, but that's also because they've put time in and for all the reasons. And it's really hard not to see like, she got a speaking keynote at that conference. You know, and now it's just the fact that I can absolutely recognize that myself and name it and then move forward. It's been so helpful.

Erin Gallagher (31:06.53)

Here's what I want you to do, Ellen. I want you to do this exercise when you have that feeling, because you will have that feeling. You will have that feeling always. So we're always going to have these feelings, these sort of inclinations that come from the conditioning. But when you have it, I want you to recognize that it is your body's way of telling you about a desire.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:12.255)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:29.191)

Ooh, I love that.

Erin Gallagher (31:30.52)

So when you see she got a keynote, you wanna have a keynote. So you're gonna write down, I'm working towards a keynote, and then you're gonna reach out to her and you're gonna say, you're gonna hyper. Congrats, so exciting. If I can go to the conference, I'm gonna try to come. Otherwise, I'm gonna post about it. And then you reach out to her and you say, am so, I really wanna do this. How did you do it? And how she responds will tell you everything you need to know about her, not about you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:35.113)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:40.714)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:55.667)

Yes!

Erin Gallagher (31:56.716)

So you will either have a person that says, here's how I did it, go forth. Or you will have someone that keeps her cards close to her vest. And again, it has that scarcity mindset that says, I don't want to tell you how I did it, because I don't want you to have it in my take. So I mean, this has been so much of my shift this past year is just, it's a reframing of, I can't have control anymore over everything the way that I thought I could. So I can control how other people are going to act. I can only control how

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:09.492)

Cause you'll do it too.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:22.28)

Mm-mm.

Erin Gallagher (32:26.51)

I sort of initiate an interaction and then whether or not I choose to respond. So while my anxiety would have kept me from maybe asking someone, how did you get the keynote? Because I'd be like, I don't wanna seem needy, I don't wanna look like I don't know how to do it, I don't wanna be a burden. Now I'm like, I'm curious and how they respond tells me everything I need to know about them. So it removes my attachment from the situation.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:31.977)

Mm-hmm

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:49.522)

love that. It's a barometer. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (32:54.368)

and my need to control it and to be worried and to come up with all of the scenario planning. And instead it's just like, I wonder how this is gonna go. Let's find out. But also it's that first part that I said, which is when you have that pang of jealousy, it is your body telling you that it's something you desire, right? So like someone has a baby and you're like.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:13.395)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (33:19.458)

Makes me feel bad. Why? Well, do you want to have a baby and you don't have a baby? Right? Someone leaves corporate America. Someone starts a company. Someone gets a bangs or a bob. You know what a screwdriver is? A stattle. Okay, it's in the garage. Like, there's a, there's on the shelf, there's the toolbox. It's in there. Okay. Okay.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:29.608)

Hahaha!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:49.254)

it so much. I love it so much.

Erin Gallagher (33:49.646)

I mean, like right now they need to know where the screwdriver is. It's like, doesn't matter that like this is happening, we're doing work. That is not the priority, the screwdriver is. And I'm worried because I just told him where it is and I have no idea what the hell he's planning to do with it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:54.985)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:01.714)

my episode with.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:06.81)

I I was like, don't you want to know what the screwdriver's for? Where's the lighter, Mom?

Erin Gallagher (34:09.132)

Well, I definitely want to know, but I also am like, I'm like, feel like it fires faster than a screwdriver, so I'd be way, way less, less willing to give information on

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:20.274)

Yeah, it'll be a while before he tears the house down. that's funny because I had Kira Maseth on, I can't remember which episode she's on, and she's this incredible disaster psychologist and talks about what trauma looks like at work and how behavioral psychology needs to come to play at work and all of this great stuff. And it was winter break and her kids came in and were like, what time are we going to the Minecraft movie, mom? Just having this whole, and I was like, I want to publish that because it's so real. And what I love is that like,

Erin Gallagher (34:22.882)

Really fun.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:48.946)

It's not a big fucking deal, you know? And it shouldn't make us feel, I mean, it's annoying, but it's like, and I'm saying that because mine does it too, I'm not saying yours are annoying, but like, it's not something that we should be ashamed of. And yet, I guarantee that my kid would not interrupt my husband in the same way.

Erin Gallagher (34:50.508)

It's not your fucking deal.

Erin Gallagher (35:10.67)

He is sitting downstairs in his office with his door closed, but they are coming up here to help me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:12.51)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's just like an example of all the people who want us to...

Erin Gallagher (35:19.97)

So I think this is the $10.9 trillion in unpaid labor that women do every single year. We are an entire GDP. We carry it on our backs. so I say keep it, right? Keep it in the episode because this just shows, this is the truth. And this is like a low level because earlier when I was pulling together this massive

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:32.713)

Wow.

Erin Gallagher (35:48.418)

sort of synopsis of everything happening right now with the book launch, both of them were sitting on me in this room, asking me questions, wanting, you know, and so this is like a much tamer version, but it's still not uninterrupted. There is no amount of brain space for women that is ever uninterrupted. And that's just, it can over time be incredibly draining.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:54.474)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:01.93)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:09.513)

Mm-mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:16.714)

It's exhausting, and that's what it contributes to burnout. But going back to what you were saying earlier, and this is something I've learned a lot in my practice when I coach with folks or in the workshops that I do, you have to figure out who you are first. And we have been, for years, been told not to be anybody but what corporate America wants us to be or society wants us to be. And when we start to peel back those layers and figure out, OK, you know what, maybe I don't like this,

Erin Gallagher (36:20.172)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:46.794)

then we're judged because we're not doing it the way that we're supposed to do. so it's a good example of like, it's not gonna stop. Your kids are gonna keep interrupting you. You can be as feminist as you want and tell them to go to their dad and he can be as great as he wants. They're still gonna come to you. And so there's this like, it's such an example of how things can go. And just like one last big question before we get to the end. I can't believe we're almost out of time, Erin.

Erin Gallagher (37:05.923)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:16.902)

One thing that I wrestle with, and as I was reading your book, so I read your book, and the night after I finished it, I had this horrible nightmare about one of my prior workplaces. And I was getting fired in my nightmare, which did not happen in real life. But I was getting fired, and it was for all of these things that weren't true, which felt real because there's a lot of...

There's a lot of stuff that goes on in the workplace of like you were saying earlier, oh, you're just being too sensitive. Or no, it's not like that. Your feelings are not accurate. So I think it was like bring up all that. So just had this huge like, it brought back a lot of stuff from a while ago when I was first realizing that I'm an individual and I don't have to be this cog. And there's this resentment that's really strong. And the resentment's not healthy, and I know that. But you talk about, you know,

jetting relationships that weren't benefiting you, you quit your first company, know. What do do with that resentment? And how do you, because it's still about them. But how do you sort of help train yourself away from that and into a, just, they can just go stay over there and I don't need to worry about it, you know.

Erin Gallagher (38:34.392)

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (38:38.834)

I started to write a different book than the one that I wrote.

And I was so angry.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:49.8)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (38:51.404)

And so the first proposal that I pulled together was fueled by resentment. It was fueled by...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:59.53)

Mmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:03.314)

Which burns hot. You can write a lot about that.

Erin Gallagher (39:04.566)

Woo! Pulled by rain. I mean, that flows, right? Because it's very raw. right at the surface. And so that was the first book, the first version of what this book was going to be. But I actually had to go through an entire metamorphosis just in the writing of the book to transform what it became.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:28.498)

Hmm.

Erin Gallagher (39:34.13)

in the chapter, the alchemist.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:36.222)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (39:38.668)

I talk a lot about how do you take what you're handed and told is yours to carry.

and is the bed that you are supposed to lie in and is the lot in life that you are responsible for seeing through? How do you take that and transform it into something different? Well, you can't outrun it. So the answer is not going to be fun. Because Ellen, it's not. Here are the three things that you do and you do that for two weeks straight. The answer is you have to.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:07.166)

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:15.984)

No, I know, I know.

Erin Gallagher (40:20.259)

You'll it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:21.258)

Yeah, yes. And you said that in your book and I was like, yes, you do.

Erin Gallagher (40:23.04)

You have to feel it. You have to feel it. You have to be angry. You have to give yourself outlets. And so the way that you can feel and process that anger through your body looks different for everyone. Some people do it physically. They go and they start doing kickboxing, right? They're a runner. They literally physically are transferring their internal rage into

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:38.441)

Mm-hmm

Erin Gallagher (40:51.778)

kinetic energy that is exiting their body. That is one way. I wrote. So while I wrote a proposal for this book that was very different, that was one that was fueled by rage, I also wrote a different book that was accepted by my developmental editor, but my lawyer told me I was not allowed to write.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:53.14)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:21.534)

Hahaha

Erin Gallagher (41:23.674)

Okay. So, so I mean, right. She was like, listen, this is good. This is true. I was there. I know that all of this you have proof, but you can't put it out there. If you don't want X, and Z to happen, which will, and we can navigate that. is a choice, right? But here's the thing, Ellen.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:26.474)

Thank God for lawyers.

Erin Gallagher (41:52.748)

Because I wrote it out, I got it out of my body. And so those pages are filled with the truth and all of my anger and all of my fucking righteous anger worked the ways that I was wronged. I got it out of my body.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:57.322)

Yes.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:02.91)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:07.464)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:13.94)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (42:15.564)

And so that's the way some people do it. Some people are artists and they paint or they create music. Think about music and how much rage is in music. So we have to get it out of our body using the medium that we are most comfortable with. Because this idea that we're going to outthink it and replace it with just like positive thoughts.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:19.966)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:25.384)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:34.367)

Hmm.

Erin Gallagher (42:42.474)

is not possible when it is still very, very potent. you should talk about it to the extent that you are comfortable talking about it in your podcast conversations. You are a writer, write about it. It doesn't have to be shared with the world. That's the other thing. This isn't.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:48.008)

Yes. I love that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:02.388)

I love that, because you think you're like, well, I have to create for my blog, for my podcast, for my whatever. And it's like, no, sometimes you can just write for you, which is a good, yeah. But it needed to happen.

Erin Gallagher (43:05.122)

Get it?

Erin Gallagher (43:11.534)

This won't see the light of day, it won't. you know what I think I needed? I needed it to be witnessed. And writing it, putting it on paper created this exchange with like, it's like kind of like a karmic contract with the universe where I said, I don't wanna carry this anymore, but I don't wanna forget completely. I remember without holding it?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:22.772)

Mm.

Erin Gallagher (43:41.038)

And it was like, yeah, put it in writing. That way you have it. If you ever want to revisit it, you can go there, but you don't have to carry it anymore. But now you know it exists and it's true and it happened. so that is how you move through. have to, you know, I say, we're told our whole life, the only way out is through, but it's not. It's the only way out is in. The only way out is in.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:47.786)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:58.75)

I love it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:07.144)

Yes. Yeah. And you talk about, I think you mentioned The Body Keeps the Score, but that is just such a phenomenal book that I've been referencing a lot lately because we are trained not to feel, and that feeling is bad, and then we should run away from it. it's very hard to get yourself to sit in it and get there. But I love the concept of writing or painting or journaling or exercising or whatever it is to get it flowing, because it's pretty hard to sit and be like,

Erin Gallagher (44:30.435)

Yes.

singing, dancing, right?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:36.168)

Let me just feel, you know, that part is really hard for, at least for me. So it's nice to have a little outlet.

Erin Gallagher (44:39.604)

Yes, absolutely. Drive in the car and play music and scream. know, like, do you remember?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:45.02)

I love that. I love that Karma was your song that you, yeah, I listened to it before this to prep, but like, I was thinking about those songs that you have, like Mine Is Untouchable Face by Ani DeFranco. I don't know if you remember that song. There's a lot of F-bombs in it. And I just like, when I'm wronged, I just sing that song, you know?

Erin Gallagher (44:48.983)

my god, it's so messy.

Erin Gallagher (44:56.924)

yes, yes, yes.

Erin Gallagher (45:03.054)

That's great. That's cool. And it's just, again, women, we are told our whole life that we're not supposed to be angry. It's not ladylike, it's inappropriate. doesn't have a purpose. Like, get over it, like, alchemize it. So we just, we're not shown how to do it. And I definitely was never shown how to do it. My mom didn't allow herself, nor was she allowed to be angry. Same with my grandmother. They transferred all their rage to me. And that's why I have sort of released it. But, you know, I think about...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:19.742)

Mm-mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:25.972)

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (45:31.574)

One of my favorite shows, Dead to Me, if you ever watch that show, there's the very beginning of it. Christina Applegate, who is the main actress in it, she is dealing with the sudden death of her husband, and she's so angry, but she doesn't know how to express it, what to do with it, and everyone is just, they are comfortable with her being sad, but not being angry. And so she goes in her car and she plays metal.

music and just fucking screams at the top of her lungs. And like you watch it, you're like, God, that looks really good. It's like, get a little tingly thinking about that. Because again, what's the outlet? What's the outlet? It doesn't have to be productive. It just needs to get out of your body. That's it. I want to, you know, I know we're going to wrap in a second. I wanted to ask you, like, what's

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:09.214)

Fun, yeah.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:20.968)

Yeah, get it out there. my gosh. we're almost out of time. I hate it.

Erin Gallagher (46:30.71)

What part is sitting with you the most from the book? what sort of, yeah, what sort of was the most powerful or resonant or, yeah, I'm just so curious.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:34.236)

about the book.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:47.838)

I have to think about that because it all felt very powerful to me. I think I'll go back to the statement which I wrote down, which you said I equipped my value and worth with my service to others. Equated, sorry, equated my value and worth with my service to others. And that is just, that cut deep in a good way. But.

Erin Gallagher (47:03.306)

Equated.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:13.29)

I'm sitting with that, for sure. I loved what was helpful is kind of in real time watching you work through that in the book, because you kind of take us on that journey with you, which helps as an example to see that it's possible and it can. So yeah, I think that's really what I'm holding onto at the moment.

Erin Gallagher (47:34.688)

Yeah, and I also just really wanted to show you that it's messy. It's okay. it's also, you're gonna try things that don't work and you're gonna do things that actually cause you to regress, but you are human. so much of it is about giving yourself the same grace that you so willingly extend to others. We as women so rarely give it back to ourselves. And so.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:40.722)

It's so messy and it's okay to be messy. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:49.247)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:01.214)

No, 100%.

Erin Gallagher (48:04.024)

Great job.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:05.194)

The screwdriver was found.

Erin Gallagher (48:07.71)

There was found close up unfolded.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:10.602)

I love it, I love it. And really quickly, the one story that's staying with me, a lot of them are, but the one of you escaping your family on your birthday or on Mother's Day and going to Chicago and like having this during the pandemic so you could go back to your apartment that you weren't living in at the time, but it was still there. And you had this whole lovely evening of just being by yourself. And then we're basically like shamed into coming back home. And it made me so sad for that, Erin.

Erin Gallagher (48:14.158)

Okay.

Erin Gallagher (48:21.453)

Ha ha ha ha!

Erin Gallagher (48:37.422)

Right? Like, it was just, I mean, it was so painful to experience. It was painful to write it again. But, you know, it's really interesting. That chapter poured out of me. Like it was like, it was like 4,000 words in one sitting. Because it was stuck in me. Ellen, was stuck in me. And my body was like, I don't want to carry this around anymore. Like, can you please?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:52.202)

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:56.04)

I bet we all have, we have those chapters, know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin Gallagher (49:07.052)

just release it. It doesn't mean get over it. It doesn't mean move on. It just means it's time to release it from having this stronghold that it has. so I just, love, I loved sharing that because I think that so many women can see themselves in that. It's like, we've all, we've all had this happen. We all have this happen happening currently. And to what end?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:13.994)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:27.146)

100 % resonated. Yeah, I'm sure it will.

Yeah.

Erin Gallagher (49:36.024)

To what end are we going to allow other people to shame us into being selfless?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:43.88)

Yeah, exactly. OK, all that. Really quickly, where can people find you? So the book comes out October 14th. Can you pre-order it now?

Erin Gallagher (49:52.216)

Yes, October 14th. You can pre-order it now, anywhere that you prefer to order books, all of the places. Yes, we don't know. That's the beauty of podcasts is that like it's either gonna come out before, during, or after. And so whenever you hear this, if you haven't already ordered the book, you have the ability to do so, whether it's a pre-order or you walk down to your local bookstore because it's already come out. So hypewomen.com, have sort of,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:58.312)

Although you may be hearing this after it comes out, so who knows?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:12.906)

Please do.

Erin Gallagher (50:22.442)

eight direct links to get you to amazon barnes and noble bookshop.org, you know, and other independent bookstores. And that's a place that also will tell you where book events are happening and, and other ways to to follow along and be a part of this journey of the breaking out of her cocoon.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:46.536)

I love it. And you can follow Erin on LinkedIn, although she is kind of leaving the platform because the algorithm is terrible and I just love you for this. So they can find you on Substack. Is that right?

Erin Gallagher (50:56.172)

Yes. So Erin for equity with the number four, Erin number four equity.substack.com has my newsletter there. And yes, I left LinkedIn. My profile still exists. I will comment on things from time to time and share posts of other people, but it is no longer my primary content publishing platform. I have canceled my LinkedIn premium subscription. I will no longer pay this.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:59.709)

With the number four.

Erin Gallagher (51:24.142)

platform to silence me and to, and also to just own my content. I mean, it's just, I'm so done. I'm so done with these Silicon Valley sycophants who are controlling everything. And I refuse, I refuse to stop saying women to please the algorithm. It will never happen. And so I will only go to places that believe that we matter.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:26.376)

Mm-hmm

It's so true.

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:41.662)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:53.128)

I love it. I'm feeling very similarly. So we may have to look for an Ellen sub stack coming soon, but it just, it's so frustrating to be, it's such a beautiful place to connect. Like in LinkedIn, that's how we found each other and that's how lots of people find each other. But it's just, you're controlled. You're, you know, your voice is controlled.

Erin Gallagher (52:04.801)

Woos!

Erin Gallagher (52:10.604)

Yeah, will. Exactly. Like I will still use it to do that, right? To connect with people because it allows you to get to people in a way that is a little more difficult on other social media platforms or if you don't have their email address or something. But as a content platform, is, it has completely walked away from being by the people for the people.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:34.42)

Yep, 100%. my gosh, you have to go. Hopefully your house is still standing. And thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for being on. We so appreciate it.

Erin Gallagher (52:43.778)

Thank you, Ellen. Appreciate you.