Episode 28: Micro-Yeses, Major Change: Neuroscience for Real Life with Britt Frank
Practical neuroscience for work and life: micro-yeses, parts work, and the mindset shift that stops spirals.
Why role clarity, curiosity, and tiny steps beat burnout, people-pleasing, and perfectionism.
Summary
What if your anxiety isn’t a flaw, but a built-in safety feature? In this episode of Hard at Work, Ellen sits down with Britt Frank—licensed neuropsychotherapist and author of The Science of Stuck and Align Your Mind —to explore the science of our brains, burnout, emotional patterns, and what it really takes to get unstuck. They dive into anxiety as a check engine light, how "micro yeses" create sustainable change, and why your brain resists even the things you want. Britt also shares why work should be human, not therapeutic, and how leaders can move from over-empathy to curiosity. If you're tired of blaming yourself for "not doing the thing," or if you lead people who are stressed, stuck, or burned out—this one’s for you.
Takeaways
Anxiety isn't a flaw—it's a signal. Treat it like a check engine light: uncomfortable, but informative.
Change feels dangerous to your brain. Even positive changes are perceived as threats because they disrupt patterns.
Micro yeses beat motivation. Tiny, ridiculously easy steps reduce resistance and create momentum.
Workplaces need clarity, not therapy. Managers aren’t meant to be counselors; they’re meant to create conditions for people to thrive.
Your mind is made of many parts. Through parts work, even your harsh inner critic can become a helpful internal coach.
Notable Quotes
"Your brain is like a Ferrari no one taught you how to drive."
"Be nice to yourself not because it's cute, but because it halts the stress hormone flood."
"Your inner critic isn’t your enemy. It just needs a different job."
"If you're fighting with yourself, you're not going to win."
"Ditch the why. Insight is nice, but action starts with: What am I willing to do today?"
Chapters
00:00 – Intro & Guest Welcome: Britt Frank
01:00 – The "Real" Bio: Humanity Over Hype
02:00 – Aerial Hoops and Perimenopause
04:00 – What Is a Neuropsychotherapist?
06:00 – Your Brain Is Not Your Enemy
08:00 – Self-Talk and Stress Hormones
12:00 – Anxiety as a Signal, Not a Diagnosis
14:00 – Why We React Differently at Work
17:00 – Emotional Safety vs. Role Clarity
19:00 – Over-Empathy and Disempowerment
22:00 – What Managers Are (and Aren’t) Responsible For
25:00 – Fuzzy Roles Create Burnout
28:00 – Why the Workplace Still Hasn’t Changed
31:00 – Your Brain Doesn’t Want Change
33:00 – The Power of Micro Yeses
37:00 – Parts Work & Align Your Mind
41:00 – The Inner Critic as a Coach
44:00 – Getting Unstuck When You're Mid-Career
48:00 – Feelings vs. Emotions 50:00 – TED Talk, Cookies, and Closing Thoughts
Keywords: Burnout, anxiety at work, workplace culture, neuropsychology, people pleasing, micro yeses, parts work, leadership coaching, emotional regulation, nervous system, trauma-informed leadership, women at work, stress at work, perimenopause and work, therapy-informed leadership
Show Notes:
Transcript
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01.122)
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Hard at Work. I'm your host, Ellen Whitlock Baker, and I am so delighted to be joined today by Britt Frank. Hi, Britt.
Britt Frank (00:13.203)
Hi, Ellen, it's so good to be with you today.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:15.904)
It's so nice to see you. Britt is a licensed Neuropsychotherapist, which you have to tell me what exactly that is, keynote speaker and author of The Science of Stuck and Align My Mind. And if you have been a listener to this podcast or read anything I've written in the last year, you know that I'm obsessed with The Science of Stuck. And my little dog-eared copy of it is right here. And I'm so excited that Britt said yes to being on the podcast because both of your books have really been game changing for me and for the clients that I work with. So thank you, first of all, for writing them.
Britt Frank (00:52.489)
Well thank you for reading them, that works out just great for both of us.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:56.046)
Perfectly, yeah. So tell me a little bit about you. mean, we'll give the full intro later, but like 60 seconds, what do want people to know about you?
Britt Frank (01:05.943)
fully human hot mess, still working it out.
Britt Frank (01:09.661)
You know, I don't do drugs anymore. I did. I don't have active eating disorders and OCD and shenanigans anymore like that. And I used to. I'm really very human. I hear my bio at, know, when I give a keynote or I do a podcast, it cracks me up. I'm like, if it was a real bio, it would be like, Britt received her degree from Duke, but was also a meth head. And she wrote a book, but she also has OCD and intrusive thoughts. And so I think it's funny how we all present a certain part of us. Like you get the half bio professionally, but fully human still working it out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:46.84)
I love it. And that's why I loved your book so much, because you are hilarious and also very real. And I'm a big fan of being authentic, so I really, really appreciate it. She has the most hilarious footnotes in her book, so please enjoy those. And you also, if you don't mind, you're an aerialist as well, aren't you?
Britt Frank (01:51.817)
you
Britt Frank (02:07.889)
It's amateur and it's my hobby and I love it. And yeah, that was, sort of found that early in my recovery. Who am I? What do I want to be now that I'm a pseudo adult, but I still feel like I'm 12. And when I was 37, I decided I want to learn how to do aerial cause that looks cool. So I do aerial hoop and at 45, you know, it's, it's challenging physically and
Britt Frank (02:35.695)
still. I will continue to do aerial hoop until you rip my freaking fingers off of that bar because I love it so much.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:42.094)
That's amazing. We're the same age, which is also amazing. Hooray. I want to go back to neuropsychotherapist.
Britt Frank (03:10.483)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:10.51)
Tell me a little bit about what exactly that is, because that's a lot of words in one word.
Britt Frank (03:15.177)
It's a lot of words and it's important for me to have the neuro there because psychotherapy everyone knows or they think they know. You you walk in, you lay on the couch, you talk about your feelings and that's what you do. And if you're a TV therapist, then you're inappropriate and you do really bad things with your clients. But that's not really how it's supposed to work. And neuropsychotherapist means that I am trained in how the brain works. Now, here's really shocking true facts.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:30.956)
Ha ha!
Britt Frank (03:42.683)
you can become a licensed psychotherapist and never ever once ever have to take a class on how the brain works. That is insane. And most people don't know that. So like, it's just not required. That's like becoming a doctor and never having to take anatomy. Yeah, it is not a requirement to have any training in the brain whatsoever to become fully licensed and like
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:52.981)
my gosh.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:57.899)
Really?
Britt Frank (04:06.225)
with the power to diagnose without ever learning anything about how the brain works. So neuropsychotherapist means I am licensed and trained and I have extra training in how your brain works because that seems sort of important with mental health, wouldn't you think? Yeah, I know.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:20.948)
It totally does. That's actually shocking. boy. That's why I really, really gravitated to your books, because I've been trying to understand a lot over the years, especially as I've been going through burnout. And we'll talk about anxiety and all of the things and changing careers and being 45 and perimenopause and all the lovely things that we go through at this age. And your description of what is actually happening in your brain has been so life-changing for me. And it really helps when I talk to my clients as well, because it helps you understand that it's not necessarily like, we think it's us, like our brain, like we're anxious or we're thinking badly about something or we're too emotional. But so many times it's just our brain doing what our brain does and we don't even have the capacity to like stop it, you know? And that was really healing for me as someone who, you know, if my stress response is pretty like I cry. And I always was told, you know, be more professional and don't get upset and to really understand that it's kind of just that my brain's flipped, that was was helpful for me. And I know it'll be too long to explain all of it, but what do you think is maybe most important or what do you like talking about most about how your brain works in relation to what we think of as thoughts and feelings and emotions and how we're handling those?
Britt Frank (05:56.521)
I love so much about everything what you just said. So the thing I love talking about the most is that our brains are not our enemies. And you really see this in our language and you see it in how we speak about ourselves. My brain hates me and panic attacks me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:07.586)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (06:17.991)
My inner critic, I need to tell her to shut up and take a hike. But if you're fighting with yourself, you're not going to win. So we have been trained in our culture and in our language to have this very hostile relationship with our own physiology. And I don't enjoy anxiety or depression or rumination or critical thoughts either. It's not like, yeah, I love it when my brain goes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:21.73)
Yeah, totally.
Britt Frank (06:41.691)
you know to town sending stress hormones careening through my body but what if your brain was actually on your side like it was your number one top team player and we've been taught this
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:46.094)
You
Britt Frank (06:54.639)
enemy model of relating to ourselves. What if that just wasn't true or necessary? And it's not just, love yourself, be nice to yourself. That's very saccharine and toothless. But actually knowing how your brain works is like having an awesome car that you don't know how to drive. So if you put me behind the wheel of the most amazing Ferrari, if it's a stick shift, I'm going to kill it. And that's not because the car is bad. It's because I don't know how to drive.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:03.224)
Ha ha.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:12.034)
Hmm
Britt Frank (07:20.827)
Our brains are like these amazing Ferraris that none of us were ever taught how to shift or drive.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:21.294)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:27.324)
I love that analogy because I use the car analogy for parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system of like, you know, having your foot on the gas and when your foot is on the gas and it never comes off, obviously that car is gonna have a problem at some point.
thinking about your brain as being helpful to you and thanking it for, sending you messages through anxiety or whatever it is. And that's a big piece of align your mind, which I definitely want to get into because that parts work is so fascinating. That's just been really helpful for me. And can you maybe walk people through what does it look like to switch from my brain is my enemy to my brain is my friend and how like what's actually happening neurologically that that helps you kind of manage things better when you have that thought.
Britt Frank (08:37.575)
Yeah, and again, it's not just, just be nice to yourself and your brain's your friend. There are very real physiological implications of switching your frame from, hate my brain to, okay, I don't really get my brain. I don't really understand how it works, but it's on my side. I'm going to start there. So if I, let's just say I mess up at work and I say something stupid in a meeting.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:41.612)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (08:58.789)
And then I go back on the, my God, how could I have said that? They're going to think I'm incompetent and I'm going to get fired and then everyone's going to hate me. And if I can't do this and that and then the spiral. Right. And so if I am now, God, I'm so stupid. Why am I beating myself up for beating myself up? And now I'm angry at myself for criticizing myself. What that does this like, how could you have been so stupid?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:08.813)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:15.886)
you
Britt Frank (09:22.193)
How could I be shaming myself? Why am I being so stupid and being mean to myself for making a mistake? I'm just human. Ugh, I hate this. I hate my brain. My brain is just messing. Okay. When you speak like that to a I see you when you speak like that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:32.536)
Do live in my brain because that is so common.
Britt Frank (09:39.023)
Your brain does not differentiate you yelling at you from someone else yelling at you. When someone is yelling at you, your brain is going to release stress hormones. It's going to send cortisol through your body because it thinks you're being attacked. That flood of cortisol is going to create physical things in your body like tension, like shortness of breath, like heart palpitations. There are real things that happen when cortisol goes through your body.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:53.966)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (10:07.099)
Now we need cortisol, but we don't need too much of it. Otherwise the bad things happen. Okay. That's what happens when I beat myself up. I say something stupid in a meeting and now it's, my God, how could I do that? Okay. Brain like that wasn't our best moment, but we're going to try really hard here to figure this out. And I'm not feeling super good. I'm feeling really, really awful, but like, I don't hate you. I know you don't hate me. Let's figure this out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:11.736)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:32.462)
You
Britt Frank (10:34.595)
you're still going to feel bad but without the additional stress physiology. If you want to solve a problem, solving a problem doesn't work when you're in stress physiology. You have to be in rational front brain executive functioning, which can't happen if you're in stress physiology. So be nice to yourself for no other reason except it will help halt the flood of stress hormones. It's very practical.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:41.87)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:49.162)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:00.334)
It's so fascinating how that happens and I love it. My therapist actually was the first person who ever told me about how in the stress response, your rational brain just kind of flips off a little bit because you don't need it in that moment when you're running away from a lion, right? And so that's why you might act a little bit totally out of character or look back at, know, why did I cry in that meeting or why did I yell at that person or whatever.
That was game changing for me because I was like, it's not my fault all the time. But it's hard to stop it until you really start, you know, kind of exploring what you said. You write in the book about like these conversations, in both books actually, but in a conversation with your brain and like this beautiful moment of thanking it for, you know, and like using that.
Britt Frank (11:51.251)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:54.425)
those feelings, but you talk about anxiety specifically, like that is your brain giving you a warning sign. And rather than saying, I'm so anxious all the time, like stopping and listening to it and trying to figure out what your brain's trying to tell you, that is a game-changing way to act. Can you say more about that? Because you have an interesting take on anxiety that I'm sure some people are like, what? And as someone who has like anxiety and takes medication for it, it's been very,
Britt Frank (12:17.853)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:24.12)
helpful to also look at it through the perspective that you explain it.
Britt Frank (12:29.737)
So if we're going to the car metaphor, which is so funny, I always default to car analogies and it sounds like you do too, because they're so useful. So I'm not either, is so, if they're just, makes sense to me. So, but I'm not a car person either, but like we'll use the car metaphor. If you are in your car and your check engine light turns on and I take the car into a mechanic and I say, hey, the check engine light is on.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:37.624)
I do, but I'm not like a car person. I just do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Britt Frank (12:58.393)
She's not going to say, well, your check engine light is on. Therefore, your car has check engine light disease. That's insane. So if anyone ever said to me, your check engine light is on. Therefore, you have check engine light disease. I would very quickly.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:05.102)
Ha
Britt Frank (13:12.113)
write a bad Google review and move along down the street. But with anxiety, it's the same thing. I have anxiety. So I go to my doctor and I say, I have anxiety. And then they say, well, if you have anxiety, then you have an anxiety disorder. Anxiety is the check engine alarm of the brain's dashboard. It's not pleasant. It's not fun. But I don't know if you did this. I did this when I was like a teenager, early 20s, you when the check engine light comes on. I had no money and I didn't have any time. So I just put duct tape over it so I didn't have to see it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:15.662)
You
Britt Frank (13:41.969)
And so that's cool, but it doesn't solve the problem. I'm not opposed to taking medication. I take meds. Do whatever you need to do to keep your symptoms in a manageable place. anxiety shouldn't be medicated away. We want to medicate it to a manageable level where it's not debilitating us. But without anxiety, without a smoke alarm, without a check engine light.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:44.238)
I just ignored mine, but yes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:01.239)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (14:08.627)
How are you supposed to know when it's time to look under the hood? So I don't like anxiety, but it is incredibly functional. Now I can tell you what I hear as a pushback from everyone. Well, yeah, but there's nothing for me to be anxious about. It's like my check engine lights going on for no reason. It's like, it just goes off, you know, like a simple email, but like it's never for no reason.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:13.143)
Mmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:26.446)
So interesting.
Britt Frank (14:31.689)
in my entire career as a practicing clinician and as a recovering human, I have seen where people have mismatched reactions, right? Like come to my office because we need to talk and hysterical crying and sobbing and I suck shame spiral. Those don't match, but that reaction belongs somewhere. And so I don't think of overreactions. think we do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:45.516)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (14:54.353)
mismatched reactions. If your reaction is higher than the situation, it's not because you're crazy and it's not because you're overreacting. It's because this belongs to something and we have to figure out what it belongs to because it didn't come from nowhere. Anxiety doesn't come from nowhere.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:04.888)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:11.05)
I've been looking a lot at like trauma and what that looks like and reading the body keeps the score. What I've noticed is that we, especially like, cause we talk about the workplace a lot here in this podcast and we treat everybody the same, but everybody has such different lived experiences and such different trauma or not trauma or whatever, that if I say something in a meeting, you might react to it with an outsized reaction because you've got something in there that is making you say, making your brain say, this is dangerous, you know, then you may not even know what it is, but it's, coming out. And then somebody else might not care at all because they don't have that same lived experience or trauma or whatever it is. And I think that's where we go really wrong, at least in the workplace, I'm sure everywhere else really, where we're like, Hey, if everybody just acts like a nice white dude who has no trauma, like we're going to be great in the workplace. But that's not who we are, most of us. And that's where I see like the outsized reactions getting really judged. It happens more to women than it does to men, that the judgment of those reactions, you're too emotional, whatever. So it's been so helpful to think about.
Britt Frank (16:31.379)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:38.978)
Just not to be mad at yourself for having those. Like you're okay. It's okay to get emotional about something.
Britt Frank (16:42.793)
Yes, well, in the workspace too, it's really interesting, because I agree with you, but there was this, as the pendulum tends to do, we've gone from act like a straight white dude, you know, who shuts it all down to that we've kind of over-indexed at work now on all of the feelings should be felt and all reactions should be indulged and managers need to be therapists and create all the psychological safety so no one's ever triggered.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:51.982)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:01.966)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:05.773)
Right.
Britt Frank (17:12.265)
As a therapist, I don't actually agree with that. I don't agree with the judgment of women for having emotions. But I also don't agree that work is a therapeutic safe space. Like work should be work, but it would be helpful to design systems where people could be human and still, you know, if you need to leave a meeting to cry, have at it. And like that's, that's the norm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:12.663)
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:24.162)
Mm-mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:35.191)
Yeah.
Britt Frank (17:35.721)
What I don't think should be the norm is if you say something neutral in a meeting and three people react to it because of their trauma history, that that's now on you. That's sort of an unrealistic ask of a workplace, I think. But I cry at work too, so I feel you. I'm like, I'm a crier. Yeah. Woohoo!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:48.032)
Yeah, yep.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:52.495)
Yay for crying at work. And someone actually told me once that women have, like we have larger tear ducts or something. And so it actually like, it is easier for us to cry or the tears come out. I don't know if that's true, but I was like, ha ha, I'm gonna take that and use it. Yeah, I think that's so interesting what you say because you do have to be really careful.
And we have this really interesting intersection of people pleasing right now. And like as a manager, I wanted my team to love me and I wanted them to feel supported and safe and all of the things. And my last role, I had a relatively young team who were not afraid to talk about their feelings. like I can't show up today because I'm X, Y, or Z, which I'm all for, like take the time you need. But there was that fixing, liking thing that I that was not what I needed to do. It's more of, to create a space that's healthy, where they can have that emotion, like you just said, and nobody judges them for it. But you're not responsible for fixing it as the leader, or even managing it necessarily, right?
Britt Frank (19:04.604)
Exactly.
Britt Frank (19:10.121)
It can be disempowering. It's funny because it can be disempowering to actually hold that kind of emotion with too much empathy. I will explain this because I don't want to get canceled. Britt’s and a monster. She's saying no empathy, but I do. I stand on stages at corporate conferences and tell managers and leaders too much empathy is actually disempowering. And I'm not saying don't care. I am saying if I am telling someone, oh, you are feeling bad, therefore don't worry. I'm disempowering them.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:21.656)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:32.087)
Yeah.
Britt Frank (19:39.721)
How about I see you're feeling bad. I believe in you and we have a job to do. So I'm going to give you tools and whatever strategies I can, but I'm not going to just be like, you're sad. So you don't need to do a thing. That's not good for humans. just don't think like ask any coach or high performing athlete. Do you go to the gym when you don't feel like it? Yeah. Do you show up for the game when you don't feel like it? Yeah. Because sometimes it's good to show up even when we don't feel like it.
So I think it's a balance of we don't want to be stone colds, but too much empathy will actually interfere with agency. And I do believe that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:06.85)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:15.458)
I definitely was in that camp. And I think a lot of us who work in the nonprofit and public sector, which I have my whole life and a lot of my listeners do too, there is such a bias towards that empathy. We talk about how we get so little training to be managers; that to me feels like one of the big problems in work. It's like you get maybe two trainings, or none. And then it's like, cool. And then here's this team. And it's like when you get I have a kid, like when they gave me my baby and I left the hospital, I was like, what the hell do I do with this? Like, there's no manual. The question I would have for you, if you were remaking the workplace and you got to make all the decisions, how would you bring in that careful.
training for how to be empathetic and how to acknowledge that people have trauma and differences and emotions and all of that, which is missing right now, but how not to go into I'm a therapist because you are not when you're a boss. How do you get that really specific blend as you're training people to manage other people?
Britt Frank (21:59.027)
And I do this and I love doing this because I think the business world and the therapy world have been so siloed that we actually each need each other's tools. The therapy world needs really good business strategists and people who know numbers and marketing and like there's a lot of business stuff missing. I didn't learn business, I'm an entrepreneur. I learned it by getting books and figuring it out and asking people smarter than I am. How does this business side work? But on the business side,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:06.787)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Britt Frank (22:27.301)
I don't care how much AI develops and we can all have robot baristas and AI chatbots doing almost everything, but the future of work is still consisting of humans. At least, I assume, for the next foreseeable five, 10 years, no matter how much tech we have, humans are still going to be needing to show up at work. And so we need to know how humans work.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:41.358)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (22:50.129)
And part of the problem with this empathy thing is that managers don't know that that shouldn't be their role. I can't tell you how many managers tell me, okay, you're a therapist telling me we're doing too much empathy. And I didn't know that. I thought I was supposed to fix it. I thought I'm supposed to create psychological safety. So how much is too much? And then my argument is instead of empathy as a manager, because neurobiologically, empathy does light up your pain centers. So if you're feeling bad and I'm empathizing with you, I feel your pain. Now we both feel bad and neither of us is in that front brain solution focused neurology. like instead of empathy, what about curiosity? Curiosity is I see you're struggling. Hmm. Wow, person, I care about you and you're struggling, but I'm not empathizing. As a therapist, if I empathize with every client I worked with,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:31.382)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:35.33)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (23:43.825)
I would have a little, as the kids say, menty B and I would not be able to be functional because if I'm empathizing with everyone, I'm useful to no one. And my clients will tell you they feel deeply cared about. I do. I love I like deeply love all of the people that I get to work with, but I can't do empathy all day. Curiosity, no problem. Curiosity lights up the dopamine reward center. I see you like let's figure out a strategy. Let's figure out what we need to do versus, no, you're
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:48.622)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:55.459)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (24:13.392)
and I'm hurting with you and now we're both hurting.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:17.45)
my gosh, it's so, it's a trap we definitely fall into. Yeah, and I love that. It's similar with coaching. Like I'm not supposed to empathize with my clients because that's not my role. My role is to support them in thinking through and figuring out how to address problems and challenges, but not to be like, ooh, that's a rough challenge. I feel it, you know?
Britt Frank (24:19.433)
Yeah.
Britt Frank (24:28.242)
Right.
Britt Frank (24:43.559)
And you just said the magic word, like your question of like, what would I do to redesign the business world is let's get really clear on roles. A manager's role is not a therapist. It's not supposed to be. So great. What is the role when it comes to humaning? What is the role when it comes to caring? The role is to create conditions for people to do their best work and that people are different. So if you're a crier, maybe you work from home on like the days where you're more...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:49.964)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:05.74)
Yes.
Britt Frank (25:10.569)
If you're not a crier and you're like, do my best work from 4 a.m. to noon and then I'm toast, great, that's when you're in. So creating conditions is a much better use of time than let me just have meetings that go on for hours with people ranting and venting. But we're not clear on our roles, so of course it's gonna get messy.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:31.983)
And that's so cool to hear you say that. No, no, I'll rant along with you because I am, you know, this is what, 20, it's like the 30th interview or podcast episode I've done, but so many smart people. And what keeps coming up over and over again is that confusion about our roles and outsized expectations are really the problem. (Christian - can you cut the part where one of us fumbles our mic and says “aah”) The problem isn't, the problem isn't like,
Britt Frank (25:32.785)
Sorry, rant’s over.
You
Britt Frank (25:57.245)
Yes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:01.262)
I'm so stressed out or I'm burned out and I need to, I can't think of the right word, but like I need to manage myself. like, I think a lot of the solutions to what's going on in our workplace right now, the burnout, the exhaustion, the, you know, just malaise in general, the solutions are focused on us. Like you fix yourself, you know, you go to the gym more and you go and get therapy, which is great and everyone should do. So that's not a bad fix, but like it's all about you and.
we're not looking at the problem, which is that the workplace is unclear and assessing people is very different all over the place. in my sector, the job descriptions are word salad. I couldn't tell you what I actually was supposed to do, other than this giant broad thing. that's so cool to hear you say that and to know that's kind of a corporate thing too, because
To me, that has been what I'm starting to see after I've talked to all these people. That's the solution is this clarity and treating people like individuals, not like all the same person.
Britt Frank (27:11.035)
Exactly. without that role clarity, you have no idea how to set boundaries or what boundaries need to be set, which is going to create burnout. if someone gets an email that says, we love what you're doing. You're doing so great. Hey, can you take on this extra project? If you're really clear on.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:18.892)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:28.771)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (27:30.045)
this project is actually outside the scope of my role, then I can very clearly send an email back and say, great, I would love to do that. I assume that this will be contracted at a separate rate since this is not within the scope of what I've been hired to do. But if I'm fuzzy on my role, then I'm going to get.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:42.306)
Woohoo!
Britt Frank (27:47.197)
Well, do I have to say yes? I guess I have to say yes, because if I don't say yes, I'm going to get fired. so and that again, like you said, that's not that's not an individual failing. And again, systems are set up to be fuzzy so that we don't say no and we continue to produce and produce. But I would say to any company over like any company owner, your revenue is going to be higher if your workers are not fried and if they're not burnt out. So, yeah, role clarity is good for your bottom line.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:52.962)
Yep.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:18.806)
Businesses in 2023 spent close to $1 trillion in the US on rehiring positions because of poor retention. And that's such a massive number. And I look at that, and I look at the stats that are like 44 % of the workforce is burned out. And the average tenure of a fundraiser, which is a lot of my background is 15 months at this point. Why aren't we doing anything about it? That's where I feel sort of lost because I see it now. You see it. You see the problem and the need for clarity and how that impacts not only the individuals who work there, but the bottom line of the business. $1 trillion is a lot. Why do you think we're not moving faster on this?
Britt Frank (29:17.385)
the philosophical conundrum of like, why are we not doing the things that we know are good for us? And that's on individual level. That's like a why am I watching another episode of whatever when I know I should be going to the gym? So I think that's just the nature of the human dilemma is we are very slow to catch on to certain things are going to produce good outcomes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:22.318)
you
I know. Yep.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:31.852)
Yeah.
Britt Frank (29:41.575)
Other things are not, so maybe we move. But there's a lot of reasons. People are attached to their way of doing things because brains like predictions and patterns. Brains don't like change. Organizational change without understanding human brains is really, really hard because no matter how positive a change initiative, brains don't like change. Even good change is going to register and get coded as dangerous.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:42.52)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:52.834)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:00.214)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (30:07.709)
But if you don't know that, it's gonna be, why aren't we doing these awesome things that we know will work? Same reason why we drink the wine and doom scroll till 3 a.m. It's because we don't know how our brains work. And of course we're gonna drive off the road.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:08.738)
Yes!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:19.63)
You
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:24.866)
Say more about the brain's not liking change because that's definitely something that has also been very helpful for me. Because again, we blame ourselves. We're like, God, why can't I make this change? I know that I need to do this. I know I should X, Y, or Z. And I talk about the immunity to change model on here a lot. And it's a very detailed step by step of how you unlock your brain's resistance to change. But you talk about it as well. Why? Why does our brain say change is bad? And what are some simple steps that you can take when you're like, I know I need to make a change, but somehow I'm not doing it. What's my problem?
Britt Frank (31:11.731)
So our brains are on our side, but they don't always speak the same language. So brains are not primarily wired for success. Brains are wired for survival. So the wiring is not, let's optimize my morning routine and join the 5 a.m. club and make sure I have adequate muscle developed to get through. Brains are like, we need to conserve as much energy in this human being as possible so it can continue to live. So brains like predictions, patterns,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:18.295)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:30.039)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:41.622)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (31:42.283)
and it's easier not to do things than to do things. If we're just talking energy in energy out, it's easier energetically to sit on your couch than to go to the gym. Now that's where the other parts of our brain are useful. Like what about long-term and goals and you know there's not a scarcity of food necessarily so I don't need to conserve all of the energy because there's food everywhere. So at least if you're listening to this that's likely true.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:54.168)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:07.266)
Hmm, mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (32:09.649)
And so it's not that your brain is sabotaging you. It's that your brain's first goal is conserve energy. Don't break the pattern because it's so much easier to go on autopilot, right? Like, you know, like if you break an ankle and all of a sudden you have to mobilize, you're like, my God, I had no idea this ankle was so important. Suddenly everything is hard and I have to pay attention to how I put my pants on. So brains like autopilot, whether you're breaking a
Britt Frank (32:37.225)
I've not gone to the gym in 20 years or I want to eat vegetables or whatever your thing is. To start a new habit, we have to start with brains. Anything that's going to scare your brain into thinking a pattern is changing is going to put you in a state of shutdown. And we often call that laziness and it's not. We often call that procrastination and it's not. And so to get your brain through that resistance,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:56.942)
Cool.
Britt Frank (33:03.461)
I use a tool I call micro yeses. And so a micro yes is not a baby step. It's not even a small step. It's take the most ridiculously tiny step you can think of. Now cut it into 10 more pieces. So a micro yes for a fitness goal is not, is not take a walk after work. Cause you're not doing it. So clearly that's not small enough. A micro yes for a fitness goal is today, throw your left shoe by the front door. Done. Nailed it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:17.197)
Hmm
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:23.287)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (33:33.373)
Like that's it. And it sounds so stupid. And I know, but here's what happens. It's a step that's so stupid. Your brain's not gonna register that anything is happening or changing. Your brain is gonna be like, she threw a shoe by the door. That's no big deal. But then tomorrow you can throw two shoes by the door. And then the next day you can put one on. And then you have now sort of trained your brain into a zone where change then becomes possible.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:35.724)
love
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:45.132)
Hmm
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:50.894)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (34:00.889)
It's like titrating up on a medication. You don't start at the highest dose of the med. You have to put just little drops into your system so you can build up a tolerance. We have to build up a tolerance to success and happiness and productivity and good habits because if you've not had them, your brain is going to think pattern change bad. Shut it down. Micro yeses help change that. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:05.911)
Right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:22.318)
Yeah. I love that.
I love that concept of a micro yes. It's just bringing up when I was working with my therapist on why am I not walking? I know it's good for me and I should be going on a walk and blah, blah, blah. And she was like, could you just put your shoes on one day? What would that look like? And I was like, well, that's not enough.
Britt Frank (34:49.053)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:53.174)
And she was like, what if you just walk for five minutes? And I'm like, but that's not enough. You're supposed to walk for an hour and get 10,000 steps. We have this picture of what it should be. And the micro steps and the micro yeses don't, we're like, well, how will I ever get to there? But it totally works. And I don't know where, like, where does that, like, where does that picture come from for us of like, this is what success looks like. Why am I not there immediately?
Britt Frank (35:13.841)
It's such a great question.
Britt Frank (35:22.921)
Where do those stories come from? Culture, upbringing, movies, you New Year's resolutions are a perfect example of this. The reason resolutions fail is because you're asking too much too fast too soon. You're changing a pattern at too fast a rate to sustain the change. Micro yeses look insanely dumb, but they work because they're small and it's sort of like compounding interest over time. The pace that you can
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:50.742)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (35:50.929)
maintain isn't the pace you start at. You know, can go further and faster eventually, but not at the beginning. Not at the beginning. We've got to get momentum going. Momentum over motivation, momentum over big giant movements every time.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:59.693)
Right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:08.226)
I mean, mic drop, like we could stop now. That is like, that is such a life-changing thing because, that's not how we're trained to work. We're trained to like immediately get it right, get the straight A's, don't make anybody mad and, you know, like be perfect in all the things. And no, you don't have to be. And it's really a beautiful thing once you realize that it's very freeing to realize I don't have to go run a marathon tomorrow if I want to start running. In fact, don't do that. That will hurt you. So yeah, so helpful. I want to talk about Align Your Mind because this is such a helpful book and I love the concept of both parts work and shadow work. And I would love it if you could just share a little bit about either of those or both of those or how they relate or whatever without telling us the whole book, but what got you interested in this and how does it help people to think using these systems?
Britt Frank (37:17.425)
Yeah, I love talking about not just the parts of your brain, like your amygdala and your stress hormones, but the parts of our mind too. So our brain is like the physical thing, that big three pound mushy electrified ooze inside our brain. But our minds, no one really knows what that is. You can't see it, you can't touch it or measure it. It's sort of like, we know our mind is the thing that creates the thoughts, maybe. But if you've seen the movie Inside Out, the type of therapy I practice parts work.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:40.632)
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (37:46.171)
is that movie is parts work. The idea is that your mind is not one thing. Your mind is like a big control center with all these different characters that are sometimes running the show and sometimes in charge. Part of me knows that thing I said in the meeting was really not that big of a deal, but this other part of me is just on the floor at the bottom of another bottle of wine because I just can't get over the fact that I said something wrong in a meeting, right? Part of me knows no big deal, part of me, very big deal. And align your mind is, okay, your mind is like a company and you have all of these different employees that you can't fire or reorg. Like you've got to learn how to work with them because you can't get rid of them. So how do you train your brain? Align Your Mind is essentially, your inner critic can actually be really useful if its skillset is upleveled.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:27.31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (38:39.899)
A good coach doesn't coddle, doesn't say, poor you, you have a tummy ache, so I guess you don't need to work out today. But a good coach isn't going to beat the ever loving snot out of you and make you feel bad. Your inner critic can be trained to become a coach. All these parts of us that we were trained to dislike, and that's what all shadow work is, it sounds so woo, but shadow work is simply, can we take all these parts of you that you think are bad?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:41.934)
Eww.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:52.6)
Great.
Britt Frank (39:06.329)
And show you what their strengths are and how to apply them to your life. So like I said, I'm a recovering drug addict. Obviously drugs are bad. And the things I did to get drugs, I also did very bad things. But it also takes a lot of like innovation and ingenuity and resourcefulness to be a drug addict. Again, I'm not saying that's a good thing, but innovation and ingenuity and resourcefulness are great qualities when they're channeled in a different direction. And so the
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:35.624)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (39:36.265)
parts of me that are delusional to write books and do the things I like to do, I need my drug addict qualities to get those things done because that pushy, I'm not gonna stop till I figure out a way to get the thing. That's not a bad thing. It's only bad if I'm using it to get like meth, but getting other things, not so bad. So shadow work is simply exactly like, you know.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:50.67)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:58.691)
General meth bad, so yeah.
Britt Frank (40:03.069)
Discipline good, pushiness can be good, meth bad, but all of the parts of you can become really valuable members of your team. Just like your brain can keep you alive and help you if you know how to drive it. Your mind, when you get to know everyone in there, the inner critic, the saboteur, the imposter, the parts of you that do too much, the parts of you that aren't doing enough, all of those different parts, you can train them and align your mind as the toolkit for how to do it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:03.697)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:08.366)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:24.494)
Mmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:34.316)
And if you don't have the benefit of being able to go to a therapist or have not gone to one who does parts work, which my therapist did, I didn't know what it was called until I read your book, but I was like, I know what this is. She was amazing. Shout out to Becca. She's the best. yeah, totally the best. What I love about it is it's like, and maybe it's just because I have a theater background and I love acting. And so it's kind of like you create these little
Britt Frank (40:50.621)
Yay, Becka!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:03.342)
or not create, but you're like, what's my persona in there? Who is that person in there that's telling me that was a really, really, really big mistake when I know it wasn't? Who is that and what are they trying to tell me? And what would they say to me if they could talk to me? I don't know if that's perfectly how you do it, but it is really cool to break it down that way because it helps you realize that you're the sum of many parts and those parts are all different at different times. So I love the concept of the workplace too, because it's like, your workplace is not always gonna be efficient. And there's always gonna be people in your workplace who are like not pulling their weight, right? So like, what is it in your body that's, or in your mind that's not pulling your weight? I just love it.
Britt Frank (41:44.037)
Hahaha!
Britt Frank (41:54.673)
It's so, well, I have a theater background too. And if you have any kind of theater background, it gets really fun. Cause then you can be the director and the writer and you could be like, you know what, inner critic, I don't think this is your scene. I don't think you're, you know, like this is not your line. So you're going to go backstage and you're going to wait until it's your turn. We're going to use you in scene nine, like act three. But right now we actually don't need that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:04.71)
Totally.
Britt Frank (42:20.317)
Particular thank you so much though. We're so glad you're here. Like kiss, kiss, hug, hug. Exactly. Eat some snacks, hang. It'll be all good. But yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:21.152)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, just hang out in the green room. You'll be fine.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:30.91)
It is a really helpful and life-changing thing, I think. And for those of you listening, the book is so great because you walk people through exercises, which I find so helpful. A lot of books are really good, but are very sort of high level and like, OK, I understand this concept, but you don't try it. you're so, not only are you super down to earth, but like, it's really helpful to know, OK, well, let's try this thing and understand how it works. So thank you for writing something that's very practical. And you even have a workbook. Like, I'm your biggest fan. I have all the things. So you also have a getting unstuck workbook. Well, I teach a class called Start Anyway that is about, it's kind of like those micro yeses, but it's like, how do you just take that one tiny, tiny, itty bitty step in a direction?
Britt Frank (43:11.797)
my god!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:25.984)
And there's great exercises in here. I recommend it to everyone. Before I ask you the final, final question, OK, so you're someone listening to this podcast. You're maybe in your mid-career. Maybe you're going through perimenopause. Maybe you hate your job all of a sudden because of the pandemic made you really rethink things and you're burned out.
Britt Frank (43:28.457)
Thank you!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:56.219)
What would be one tiny thing you could do to just start to move in a different direction or feel differently? Because I think, and I find this a lot with my clients and I was the same way, you just feel like you can't, you have to keep doing the job because that's a job you've done for 20 years and you can't possibly get another job and you need to get the income because your kid's going to college and you know, we have all of these reasons why we have to stay in these situations that are very challenging for us. What would you advise as a first little step?
Britt Frank (44:31.369)
So let's start with the assumption that there's probably a choice or two available because most people will say, I have no options. I have to stay at this job because of the money, because of the kids. And that might be true. So we're not fighting you on that. It's like, okay, cool, great. But you're telling me you have no choices whatsoever. I don't buy that. The first thing you do is let's start with the assumption that you have at least two choices. I don't know what they are.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:37.387)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (44:58.707)
But let's assume that you likely have two. You may not like them. They might not be good. They might not be what you want. But we have to start with as long as there's the presence of at least one or two choices, we can get you some movement of those two choices. Pick one and then break that down into the smallest possible silliest ridiculous thing you could think of. And that's your micro yes. And the other thing is ditch the why. And I am a therapist telling you when you're stuck in that situation, why
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:11.49)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:21.783)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:25.131)
Yes.
Britt Frank (45:28.165)
Insight is going to load you down and make you even more stuck. I knew why I was doing drugs when I was doing drugs. I knew why I ended up in a career I hated. Okay, cool. Now I'm just insightfully stuck. So for the time being, ditch the why and go to what am I willing to do today? Not tomorrow, not next week, not after the holidays are done. What am I willing to do?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:42.859)
Yeah.
Britt Frank (45:55.579)
in direction of what I want right now today because micro yeses don't need to wait for a season or a start date or a Monday or a post holiday, whatever. You could do micro yeses right now. So what am I willing to do today?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:59.833)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:09.281)
Yeah. And maybe it's just put in that shoe by the door and that is okay. I think we get really, really stuck in why I have discovered surprisingly, I don't like to feel feelings, which is shocking to me because I'm very sensitive. I've always been sensitive, but again, shout out to Becca. I realized that what I'm trying to do is
Britt Frank (46:14.547)
That might be it for today, and that's great.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:40.866)
outthink my feelings. And so if I felt sad or bad or mad, I would sit there and just be like, why am I feeling this way? I don't understand. I shouldn't feel this way. And I just get so wound up on why when really I just needed to kind of acknowledge the feeling and then I could move on much more quickly. A lot of us are like that where it's like, this feeling is bad or hard, so I want to think my way out of it as opposed to sitting in it. But it's surprising how quickly it passes when you do just sit in it.
Britt Frank (47:18.939)
Or what am I willing to do? If I'm sad, great. Are you willing to take a walk? Are you willing to call a friend? Are you willing to journal? If you're not, okay, but what are you willing to do right now? And that will also move you. Sitting in it, totally valid strategy. But like you said, insight and why, why, why, why, why, not helpful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:38.479)
Somebody says that like a feeling, or maybe it's an emotion, I always get them confused, so maybe you can tell us the difference, but if you sit in it, it lasts for like 90 seconds max or something like that. Like it's not gonna go on forever. Yeah, I think it's in Emotional Agility, the book.
Britt Frank (47:56.807)
I've read that too.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:04.968)
What is that difference between emotion, feeling, is insight, or even just emotions and feelings? What is that difference between feeling it in your body and having it be something you're thinking in your mind? And I still am getting it wrong, because I don't fully understand, but I think it's so fascinating.
Britt Frank (48:35.441)
You're not getting it wrong. just like, I'll do this really quick, like just quick and dirty. So.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:38.944)
No, take your time. We have time. It's okay.
Britt Frank (48:41.769)
A feeling is just physiological. My stomach is tight. My jaw is clenched. My chest hurts. My palms are sweaty. So a feeling is what's the physiology? What's going on with the physical, the meat suit we walk around in is doing something twitchy, buzzy, tight, tense, loose. Those are all feelings. Emotions are when you take your feelings and you add a story to them. So I have a tight stomach because I'm about to give a presentation.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:07.278)
Mm.
Britt Frank (49:11.505)
So I might code that emotion as fear because fear is a tight stomach plus I'm about to give a presentation. If I ate poisoned food, I'm gonna have a tight stomach and I'm gonna puke, but there's no story there other than I ate bad food. So that's not fear, that's just I'm sick. Or if I have a tight stomach because my kid hasn't called and I'm worried about where they are, that might also be fear. But I might have a tight stomach before I run a marathon because I'm excited.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:14.881)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:26.574)
Mm-hmm.
Britt Frank (49:40.103)
And so an emotion is whatever the feeling is, when you put it with a little story, the story might be true. It might be really true that this is a scary thing, but we can check in to say is the story I'm telling about this feeling true? And if it is, then you sit with it and hope that that 90 second thing that's been documented holds true. Or you ask yourself this question. What are my choices? All right. I feel the physiology of uncomfortable stuff and my stories are there and okay, what are my choices right now? Cause you can't figure out what do I do unless you know what your choices are. Your choices are going to be different than mine. My choices are going to be different than the person down the street for me. Pick your choices from your menu, not from, wish I had your choices, but like if I don't, I have to figure out what are mine and of those, what am I? it is again.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:13.901)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:28.727)
Mmm.
Britt Frank (50:33.371)
willing to do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:35.8)
What a good takeaway for everyone. What are you willing to do? That's a simple question to ask yourself, but we never do it. So I love that. Yeah.
Britt Frank (50:42.525)
Yeah, no shame. If you're not, okay. But like, yeah, what are you willing to do?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:48.62)
Yeah, maybe it's just eat a cookie and that's your day. don't, you know, like sometimes that's okay. my God, so much. What's your favorite cookie?
Britt Frank (50:52.039)
Yeah, totally. I love cookies.
chocolate like old school slice and bake Nestle Toll House chocolate chips. Yes, please.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:02.466)
Nice. Mine is the Nestle, but making it from the back of the package, though. There's no other option. That's the one. I'm with you. We'll have to get together and eat cookies one day. Let me ask you my last question I ask everybody, which is, if you were going to give a TED Talk on something other than your work, it can be adjacent. Some people have a hard time with that. What would it be on and why?
Britt Frank (51:28.207)
I would give a TED Talk on why circus arts are really, really great for human beings. And the mechanics of a spin. Here's why you get nauseous and puke when you're spinning in a circle and how to deal with that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:36.512)
Nice.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:45.304)
my gosh, you should give that TED Talk. People would love it.
Britt Frank (51:47.155)
think someone has. I think there's a gal who does like aerial silks while someone is talking. I don’t know if it’s a Ted talk, but she's talking about the physics of it. But my husband was a nuclear engineer. So he drew me a diagram of like spin mechanics. And here's what's happening with your vestibular system. And here's why you puke and what you can do to train. That's like, bro. But yeah, I would do a Ted talk on aerialists and spinning.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:59.394)
wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:08.236)
Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:13.416)
because whenever I see an aerialist, I'm like, how are they not fainting or puking? It scares the hell out of me. You just have to learn to not do it.
Britt Frank (52:19.089)
You do, you do a lot. Yeah, you literally train the puke response out of your body, but it still feels horrible. feels training spin is awful because you have to get really sick for a while until you do it enough that your brain knows you don't have to puke and you won't die. It's delightful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:27.714)
Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:39.764)
Thank you so much, Britt. I really, really appreciate you being on this podcast. We've been working on it for a while, so I'm really grateful that we made it happen. And where can folks find you?
Britt Frank (53:06.077)
Yeah, this was so fun and I'm so caffeinated. I spoke over you several times, so I'm going through a little shame spiral about that, but my little voices are like, you suck, but I'll work through it. Find me online, at Britt Frank on Instagram. BrittFrank.com is my website and you can buy my books, The Science of Stuck and Align Your Mind and the workbook, wherever you like to buy books.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:12.986)
my God,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:29.942)
You can, and I will put links in the show notes, and I highly recommend them to anyone. And thank you. Just have a great rest of your day, and I really, really appreciate it.
Britt Frank (53:40.477)
Thank you so much.
Britt received her undergraduate degree from Duke University and her master’s degree from the University of Kansas. She is a licensed neuropsychotherapist and trauma expert who is trained in IFS (Internal Family Systems) and SE (Somatic Experiencing). In addition to her private practice, Britt is also a speaker and an award-winning adjunct instructor at the University of Kansas, where she’s taught classes on ethics, addiction, and clinical social work.
Born and raised in NY, Britt struggled for more than two decades with chemical/behavioral addictions, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, OCD, trichotillomania, crazy-making relationships, and complex PTSD. Eventually she found her way out of that mess (with a lot of help and a brief stint in a religious cult) and became a therapist.
When she’s not hanging from the ceiling practicing aerial arts or spending time with her family, Britt is a featured mental health expert on podcasts, blogs, and television.
