Episode 21: Leading Humans First: A Conversation with Robbin Hudson

Aug 14

How to Build Human-Centric Workplaces When the System Resists

Coaching, Culture, and Why Leaders Need Brave Spaces Too

Summary

What does it really look like to lead from a place of humanity in a system that often values productivity over people? In this episode, Ellen is joined by Robbin Hudson—executive and leadership coach and founder of Gradient, a human equity think tank. Together, they unpack why burnout is rampant, how intergenerational dynamics are reshaping the workplace, and what it means to lead bravely (not perfectly). They explore the myth of safety, the role of story in organizational culture, and why it’s okay to start exactly where you are: stuck. If you’ve ever felt like work is asking too much while offering too little—or if you're a leader trying to do better but unsure where to start—this conversation is for you. Keywords: burnout, values, workplace culture, leadership coaching, equity, belonging, human-centric work.

Takeaways

Start at stuck. You don’t need to be ready or clear to begin. The work starts when you admit that something isn’t working and get curious about what comes next.
Burnout isn’t always about work. It’s about misaligned values, unspoken expectations, and carrying too much for too long. Getting honest about what you value is step one.
Brave leadership beats performative safety. You can’t guarantee psychological safety, but you can foster brave spaces built on empathy, clarity, and story.
Values drive boundaries. When you know what matters most, it gets a lot easier to decide what you’ll tolerate—and what has to change.
Human equity is more than DEI buzzwords. It’s about leading from your own humanity and creating cultures where people can bring their strengths, not just their output.

Notable Quotes

“We can’t guarantee safety—but we can practice bravery.”

“Start exactly where you are. You don’t need to be ready. Just start at stuck.”

“You didn’t sign up for this? Okay. But you also didn’t have to accept it.”

“If you say you value family but work 22 hours a day, it’s time to revisit your list.”

“You can’t outsource humanity. You have to bring it into the room yourself.”

Chapters

00:00 – Meet Robbin Hudson & Her Coaching Journey
04:00 – Wealth, Philanthropy & Purpose-Driven Work
08:30 – The Origins of Gradient & Human Equity
13:00 – Coaching the Whole Human, Not Just the Job
17:00 – Storytelling & Bravery in Workplace Culture
22:00 – Why We Can't Guarantee Safety—but Can Invite Bravery
26:00 – Inclusive Leadership in a DEI Backlash Climate
32:00 – Coaching Leaders Through Fear, Shame & Perfectionism
36:00 – Burnout, Stuckness & The Golden Handcuffs of Corporate Life
40:00 – Create Two Plans: Stay & Go
45:00 – Intergenerational Workplaces & the Myth of "Stability"
51:00 – What Middle Managers Can Do
55:00 – Robbin’s TED Talk (Hint: It’s about Southern food & legacy)

Keywords: burnout at work, leadership coaching, workplace culture, DEI strategy, equity in the workplace, executive coaching, nonprofit leadership, employee burnout, values-based leadership, psychological safety, human-centric work, coaching for women, inclusive leadership, middle management stress, work-life balance

Transcript

Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:22.808)

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Hard at Work podcast. I am thrilled to have Robin Hudson on the podcast today. She is the founder and CEO of Gradient Consulting, which is a human equity think tank and an executive and leadership coach. Welcome, Robin.

Robbin (01:41.464)

Thank you, Ellen, so much for having me. I'm excited to be here with you today.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:45.566)

I'm so happy to have you. So I start everyone off the same way. What is your 60 second Wikipedia entry of Robin?

Robbin (01:54.946)

Yeah, a girl whose grandmother migrated from rural Mississippi in 1925 to Cleveland, Ohio, because she was thinking of me, although we never met. I've had the opportunity to be really well educated by American standards. I'm a boarding school kid who could never quite figure out what to do with my brain the way it's wired.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:07.214)

Mm.

Robbin (02:22.102)

And so along comes this opportunity to be a support to others in the form of coaching. So I'm an executive and leadership coach, which is probably the thing when we talk about being hard at work that brings me the most joy, right? Because it's creating opportunity and space for folks to become the best version of themselves according to their definition. And so I really love being a coach and management consultant.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:46.092)

Yes.

Robbin (02:51.648)

Because not only people, but organizations also aspire to be the best version of the organization. And that really is why helping people become the best version of themselves who lead and support organizations. So I'm a mom and living currently in Atlanta, Georgia. So I'm happy to always, always have conversations about helping folks figure out.

what's next, what's best for themselves.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:24.622)

That is awesome. And I have to ask this because it's my background too, but I saw that you have some fundraising experience too. So you haven't just been in the private sector.

Robbin (03:33.432)

do. started off in banking, right? Started off working in a trust department because I just have had this tinkering of the curiosity about wealth. And so when I started there, way back in the 1900s, as young people say now, way back in the 1900s, I thought I wanted to be a trust officer because what I learned was that wealthy folks

are very charitable, right? And so they give a lot. But there was always a gap for me in trying to make the connection between philanthropic giving to what we call in Cleveland, the Eds and Mids. Being from Cleveland, you have the Cleveland Clinic, the Cleveland Orchestra, you have universities, and most major cities have this. But I did not see where these dollars sort of flowed into areas and communities and programming where folks were most.

at need and at promise. And so it kind of pushed me to go into education. So I worked for the school district for a while because I thought, hey, this is where I can make impact. Remember, people and organizations kind of like my jam. And I realized that that wasn't going to work either, right? These big systems, lots of people, lots of plans, not a lot of impact and positive outcome for the people who are relying on.

on the organizations or the systems. And so that pushed me into sort of a nonprofit sector to say, hey, how can we support people? So I went to an organization that focused on leadership development. And that's where I really kind of got into that. was grassroots leadership development is how they termed it. But it really allowed me to see when you empower people, give them a little skill, they already have the will, the vision and the passion.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:03.47)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:14.561)

nice.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:28.504)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (05:28.764)

And so people are ready to do things. So from there, I learned that this takes money. Back to kind of how I started my career with philanthropy and folks being philanthropic because of wealth they have accumulated, oftentimes for generations. Those are the people that support the nonprofit sector. So then it really clicked for me. All the pieces came together. And then I moved into

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:32.184)

Nice.

Robbin (05:56.084)

I'm working in a space for a foundation, the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland, and began to think about how to raise funds. I was sort of like a consultant and coach for many, many nonprofit organizations there. And then that strategy around fund development and fundraising, I was really able to solidify myself as sort of a practitioner in that space. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:02.254)

So nice.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:11.853)

very cool.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:22.142)

Nice. I love that. We talk a lot. I guess we haven't really talked about it much on the podcast, but I talk a lot about community-centric work and the community-centric fundraising movement is so cool and watching it really grow. There's a big pod of people doing it here in Seattle. And I Seattle Foundation has been really working on it too, where it's that, and I'm saying this to explain to the listeners, not you, but the...

letting the community be the one to direct where the sources of support are going as opposed to the rich people saying, I would like to support this one thing. And it may be not being what the community needs or wants. that's one, I think you must have been involved in that in some way, but it feels like it's one big change in fundraising that I'm really liking seeing.

Robbin (07:14.658)

Absolutely. And you have a lot of people like social venture partners and different organizations, this notion of venture philanthropy. Actually, there's a gentleman by the name of Mario Marino. He's a Clevelander, you know, tech, early tech person, I think he made his wealth there. And he actually wrote a book, The Leap of Reason. And he was kind of like he's considered one of the pioneers of sort of this venture philanthropy movement.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:18.509)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (07:43.714)

that we see now, you know, with lots and lots of foundations, but this notion of trusting people to tell you where they need your resources versus you just having an idea or a passion and offering those resources in the name of like doing good for people, doing well for people, right? So it's like, how can you do that if you're not allowing people to say actually what they need and your funding?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:56.44)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (08:12.62)

goes amiss, right? It lands somewhere that won't be as effective. So yeah, that excites me too. We have that in common.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:14.242)

Yep. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:18.538)

It's huge. Yeah, there's good stuff happening. I think it really goes into what I want to talk about next, is gradient. Because you talk about gradient on the website as being human-centric. So teaching organizations and companies to be human-centric in order to be a catalyst for change.

I love that because that's what we keep talking about on this podcast is centering the people and knowing that they're different and that everyone kind of needs a different thing at work. So how can we make the workplace about the people and what they need as opposed to treating everybody as the same, which we've talked about a lot here. So can you tell me a little bit about Gradient, how it came about and what are some examples of the kind of work that you do?

Robbin (09:08.77)

So, like I said, I grew up and I grew up professionally in Cleveland. So the Cleveland Foundation was the first community foundation in the nation. So I come from this place where philanthropy has a long, long tradition. Now we can get into the history and the why the foundation was established. I think that's a topic for another podcast, right? Cause it's rooted in sort of the not so pleasant stuff, right? So you had the...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:20.299)

wow.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:35.47)

huh.

Robbin (09:36.812)

Rockefellers and all those folks who had their summer cottages in Cleveland, who lived in Cleveland. They started businesses there. And, you we know why foundations exists, right? It was a tax break. And so here, dump the money. Cleveland was also the home of the United Way. So the first iteration of like the United Way, I can't remember what it was actually called, but started there in Cleveland as well. So this very philanthropic and seemingly generous, you know, ecosystem, right?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:42.627)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:47.394)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (10:06.732)

very, very old. Working with nonprofits, know, there are 40,000 nonprofits within the county. And having the opportunity to work with them very closely, as I told you, when I was in philanthropy, I just, there was always something missing for me, right? And what I realized was that people want to do good work in community. They want to help, they want to be helpful. They want to be problem solvers. They want to be change agents.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:16.437)

Wow.

Robbin (10:36.792)

And they think they have to start a nonprofit organization to do so. Because, right, well, we've been talking about philanthropy. The only way you can get philanthropic dollars is that you have a 501c3 nonprofit corporation, right? And what I would always say is people think a nonprofit is this magical place that's not a business. So because I want to help, and this is the example I use.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:40.558)

Yes, we have so many.

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:01.592)

Hmm.

Robbin (11:04.62)

Because I want to help children learn to read instead of pick up guns and shoot each other, I need a nonprofit so that I can get money from the foundation, from the family foundation, from the government in terms of a grant. And so having that experience, went back very late in life and got an MBA from Weatherhead School of Management. And this framework of self, team, organization, and society

you lead in those spaces and you develop certain leadership attributes to be able to navigate in those spaces. It's said to me that coaching, and that was my introduction to coaching, there are a lot of people who coach people just on the business. So I can coach business folks on the management strategies, right? And that's a lot of what Great Hit does. We help leaders figure out solutions to whatever is ailing their organization, whatever barriers they're dealing

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:45.134)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:03.139)

Hmm.

Robbin (12:03.66)

I would say 75 % of the time those issues are people, people and culture issues. So that's the space that I like to play in, people and culture space. When I decided to get my coaching training and become a certified coach, we were challenged to think about our avatar. So I think, you you know, you decide who are the people that you want to coach.

And I thought, wow, Cleveland has this huge ecosystem of nonprofit leaders who are doing the work, but they don't have this beautiful luxury of this spaciousness, this time to set aside, to be reflective and to do it in partnership with someone who's not going to give them the answer, but really just create silence and create powerful inquiry to help them get to the answers that they're seeking. And I thought,

That is missing in Cleveland. That does not exist in our ecosystem. And so I said, I will pursue this coaching of nonprofit organizations. had spent some time in the sector. had funded folks in the sector. I had done strategic planning and thinking and co-production with folks in the sector. So I understood where the opportunities were to be supportive as a coach and a consultant.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:02.807)

Hmm.

Robbin (13:24.604)

And I reached out to a couple of friends. One of them I had sent to the same training program, Coach Diversity Institute. And he had just finished up his coaching certification. And another friend came and said, I'm thinking about striking out on my own. I just wanted to get some advice from you about being a consultant and working on your own. And I said, well, you guys are going to be coaches thinking about starting this little business where we do these two things. We support nonprofit leaders.

provide coaching for them. And they were like, we're up for it. At the time, I had began to shape my coaching approach as one that I would always honor people's whole humanity. I didn't want to just coach people on the work stuff, right? In a silo. I wanted to create space for people to say, you know, my knee really hurts. And every time I have to sit in a two hour meeting,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:10.562)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (14:24.426)

It just, it's just grueling. I wanted people to be able to bring things to the coaching space that allow them to see how they, as a complex being, could not isolate issues and barriers because they wouldn't get very far. And it was, it would be more of the same, barely changing or barely impacting the difference that they wanted to make. And so,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:26.531)

Hmph.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:35.842)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (14:53.656)

the human equity think tank piece came because I said, we've got to prioritize human equity. And this was at the end of 2019. So you know what happened in 2020? Our nation went through a very horrible, horrible experience. And then followed by some social unrest, people really just having had enough of the inequity, the disparity, the racism, the sexism and all the things that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:04.184)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:12.696)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (15:21.942)

make our existence really, really taxed. And so I said, if we are going to do this work, the systems change work, this organizational development work, and this coaching, it has to be done in a way that we are saying right up front. It doesn't matter what container, what body you show up in. We want to get inside and help you understand who you need to become, what you need to focus on, what you need to learn about yourself so that

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:48.472)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (15:52.249)

Right? Your humanity, your humanness can lead the way. And I will tell you, we worked with one organization. And when we first entered into the contract, they were against affinity groups. They did not want employee resource groups in the organization. They had never had it. They were growing very rapidly. And we were making the case for it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:57.75)

I love that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:11.736)

Yeah.

Robbin (16:20.322)

They still kind of had it on pause. We're not sure. One of the leaders of the organization had a personal change within their life, within their family, and immediately said, we need this type of support in our workplace. It wasn't Grady and taking the credit. It was Grady and introducing the idea as a solution to what we had heard from folks working there about the culture. But it ultimately was that

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:36.462)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:43.916)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (16:50.52)

leaders personal experience. So imagine if people aren't encouraged to lead from a place of self, right? You can only lead from what's best for your shareholders, what's best for your board, what's best for the, you know, the, the grants report. If you're never allowed to bring that part of yourself into how you lead, then you'll make changes or not make changes that could benefit or

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:03.656)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (17:21.13)

And so that human equity piece is something that we always try to get under. And we encourage people to tell their stories. So we do a huge story of self component to our work so that we can begin to share what makes us unique. And I say unique and not different, right? Because we're all humans, but we're unique. And I think where we get caught up and we're

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:31.384)

Hmm. Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:44.416)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (17:50.018)

what leads to a lot of problems is that we think somehow we are so different that we can't even recognize the commonality.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:59.918)

Mm-hmm. my gosh. So much to say about that. I love that so much. And the story of wow, that's something we've been exploring a lot on this podcast. And I have said it before, but I'll say it again. In my coaching program, I had to do that work, which I hadn't really done because the concept is you should know yourself before you coach other people in some form. And we really aren't...

encouraged to do that in a lot of ways, especially in workplaces where we're considering the output more than the input. So that really resonates with me. And I love that you start with that. How do you help people feel comfortable in getting there, especially within a workplace where

people don't always feel safe to be super honest about themselves or their story. What are some ways that you can like encourage that sharing that feels safe for people?

Robbin (19:09.688)

So we talk about the story first and we talk about it as the foundation of who you are, not only as a worker, but just as a human being. So we kind of lead with some discussion around that. And then with any good consulting engagement, there's always an assessment. So you're always doing culture and climate surveys. So people will tell you, it is really hard for me to come here and have purple hair.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:30.092)

Mm-hmm

Robbin (19:38.4)

It is really hard for me to work here and, you know, I'm not someone who's going to stay past five o'clock, you know? And so there are all these mysterious little unique qualities about people, some that we can see. So some that are like the tip of the iceberg, and then there are others that are well below the surface. And so that initial assessment that says, what is it like to work in this place?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:46.574)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (20:07.19)

gives us so many data points. From there, we're able to model what it means to share which parts of your story, right? And so Dr. Brene Brown says vulnerability is not oversharing. And so we talk a lot about what is necessary for you to feel brave. We can't control safety, right? Because I've convened lots of work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:09.624)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:22.574)

Mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:29.518)

Yeah. Yeah, that's

Robbin (20:37.09)

place activities and people share and share and share. And then I get calls from coaching because someone has shared something that harmed me or I feel attacked for, or someone else shared my story and I didn't give them permission. So we can never guarantee anyone's safety, no matter how much you say this, their psychological safety. And I've taught workshops on psychological safety and what it means and how it looks.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:56.686)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (21:07.042)

But that's not something we can ever guarantee in a space, but we can empower folks and give them the tools and the language to be brave, at least to practice being brave, right? Because we're only as brave as our last brave moment, right? And so we invite people to practice being brave. And the first part of that is how did you become the person you are?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:18.28)

Mm, I love that. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:24.386)

Yep, yep, yep.

Robbin (21:37.014)

What are those things that you are comfortable sharing about your growth and development, your family, your community, the context from which you have emerged to this point that will help others have a little more empathy for you and to also see your humaneness? Because a lot of times folks go to work and we know the polarity. It's one or the other. It's

my work family, my work wife, my work husband, my work child, right? There are people who see themselves as work parents of colleagues, which is interesting. And then you have places where it's just all about productivity. Just get it done. You can have as much time off as you want as long as the work gets done. We don't ever have to see you in the office. So you have these polar opposite places and we wanna be more aligned in the center so that people feel comfortable coming.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:24.117)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (22:34.092)

You know a little bit about me, right? But you don't know everything. You don't need to know everything. You need to know enough to be able to have some understanding of maybe how I function. We need to be able to talk about how I work best, how you work best. And we get that out of the way by just creating this space for people to share a little bit of their narrative in a brave way, knowing that we cannot guarantee safety.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:37.88)

Right. Right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:50.444)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (23:02.008)

somebody's not gonna come back and say, well, because you grew up in a single family home, I understand now why, you know, I mean, because that happens, right? And so we caution folks, we give them a framework around the story. There are some questions, you know, and they can choose how to answer them. And again, just share what they're comfortable sharing.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:05.932)

Yeah. Yep.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:20.898)

Love that. I love that. And thank you. I often say safety. And another guest told me that he also doesn't use the term safety. can't remember what. I think he uses comfort or something like that. you're totally right. And there's this.

There's just this interesting feeling of when you're going into a workplace where you feel like you can't not be yourself because I don't think you have to be all yourself at work. You don't have to bring all of that to work, but where you can't, you know, lean on your strengths because they might be perceived as, you know, different than the norm or what's going on in the work.

And this is such a beautiful way to honor those strengths first and how they come from your story and how does that build you into the person you are and what you bring and how these workplaces, it takes everybody to make it really work well. So I love that.

Tell me a little bit about in this current climate, so we're recording this in June of 2025, where DE &I organizations or consultants or anything like that are just completely under attack from the government. And I know that there's some language on gradient site about DE &I and it's all actually really wonderful and everyone should go read it because the descriptions are fabulous.

How are you continuing right now? And what are some things that are challenges in this current environment so that we can know about that when we're looking to work with consultants in this space?

Robbin (25:19.138)

So while on our website you'll find lots of DEI language and things like that, we have always positioned ourselves as strategic management and leadership development. We always talk about inclusive leadership capabilities, and DEI is kind of like buried in that, in the way we deliver services.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:40.428)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (25:47.018)

So when we think about five years ago, all that was happening in our country, the context then, people were really, really moved to make change. They were motivated, I would say, to make change. Not necessarily because they wanted to, but because things were happening like foundations were restricting funding. If folks hadn't taken a look at themselves and diversified their boards or...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:02.69)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (26:14.944)

foundations were only granting dollars to organizations that have been underrepresented, underfunded, under supported, right? So we kind of have, again, this reaction to something as opposed to forward thinking and planning. And so when we thought about, we're going to deliver DEI skills and competencies, because you have folks wanting just workshops on terminology.

They just wanted to know the language of diversity, and inclusion. You had folks wanting whole strategic plans that were DEI focused. Not because that was anything that they had ever cared about, but it was because it was what the funder was requiring. And so in each and every instance, while we have deep knowledge and lived experience around these matters, and my partners, their organizers and nonprofit leaders, so we've

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:42.318)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (27:11.202)

We have a very complimentary skill set. We recognize that at the end of the day, it rests with the leader. How are you leading your organization, your team, yourself? And then we always challenge people, how is this organization and your leadership showing up in the community and society? What are you saying? What are you doing? Is it just, know all the meanings of all the buzzwords now.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:19.213)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:24.876)

Hehehe.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:33.432)

Yeah.

Robbin (27:41.228)

Or are you changing the way that you guide your culture from within? So that you're leading outwardly saying, we have a truly inclusive culture where everyone feels like they belong. People bring enough of their authentic self to a space that is accepting and invites people to

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:46.574)

Mmm.

Robbin (28:09.014)

be sincere professional colleagues and not necessarily this artificial work family, right? Because that doesn't work for everyone, right? All those sort of buzzwords and catchphrases and frameworks that we've conjured up to make ourselves feel however we need to feel doesn't work for everyone. So immediately if I go somewhere and they're like, welcome to the work family.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:11.894)

Hmm

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:16.588)

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:32.568)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (28:37.504)

with me because you don't know the trauma I carry. You don't know what my current family situation is like. And so when you create an opportunity for people to tell their story, you give leaders an opportunity to know people's strengths, to know where people may have some tender spots so that we can do our best to not do harm. Not gonna be perfect. Not gonna get it right the first or second time sometimes, but we can create a space that's brave and where people can come.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:38.092)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:47.85)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (29:07.67)

like, hey, I can contribute my gifts and talents in a way that leaves the organization better off, society better off. And I don't have to worry about knowing the DEI buzzwords because I'm leading from a place of authenticity.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:19.746)

Mm-hmm.

I love that. I love that so much. it's in some ways the easier path and in some ways it's the harder path. mean, it's, yeah, I would say harder. And you and I had talked a little bit before we met this first time and we had talked about leaders having that fear of...

Robbin (29:33.664)

It's the harder path for sure. It's the harder path for sure.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:48.332)

I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do it. And we talk a lot about perfectionism and I got to get this right. And this is a space where it's not right or wrong. It's learning and growing and exploring and trying. So what are some things that you do when you're up against a leader, not against, but you have a leader who is maybe just really scared and

and resisting some of the work that you're doing because it feels uncomfortable. It's different than what they grew up with in the workplace where we never talked about our feelings. Yeah, what are some things that you do to help them along if you can?

Robbin (30:32.086)

Again, this is what I love about coaching. This is why I started Gradient along with my partners because people need a confidential space where there's no judgment, where they can unpack, unlearn, reframe, reimagine, and come out of that 45 minutes or 60 minutes with that big aha moment that gives them the courage to move.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:58.914)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (31:02.434)

So I don't wanna make it seem like coaching is like this magic bullet. I think it's magic. I think it's an amazing tool. And I think everybody should have access to it, which is why we sort of started our business going to work with nonprofit leaders because they're so busy focused on the mission and making sure that the mission is achieved, right? Because they're responsible to the funder. They're responsible to the funder, right?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:08.59)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:23.65)

Yep. Yep.

Robbin (31:31.324)

And when funders realize that that money is really just there for the mission and not for their grant reports and their annual meetings, I think we'll see some even more change in the philanthropic sector. But giving leaders that opportunity to have that confidential space and if you need to make it a coaching consulting space to give them that moment of strategy.

volley, right? So it's like, I'm thinking of this and you're able to just, you know, your coach, you're able to just ask those questions because you're listening so deeply and they rarely have people listening deeply to them, right? Because they are always supposed to, right? They're tasked with having the answer. They're tasked with pivoting, you know, really quickly. And so when you create that space, that coaching space, that's non-judgmental, that's quiet,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:59.564)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:13.12)

No, never sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (32:28.216)

that's reflective, that's curious, then folks really do come to what they need. They really understand what the next move should be, right? And then you can coach around all of those disempowering beliefs. Well, as the leader of this organization, if I do that publicly, what does that mean for you? Or what does that mean for me, right? And then we get to ask one of my favorite coaching questions.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:37.004)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:41.496)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (32:57.942)

you know, when there's a disempowering belief, what is true about that? A lot of times it's just perception that's not actually reality. A lot of times it is what, if I don't do it, the sense of responsibility that is really irrational. It's not, you know, logical, right? And so creating that space for leaders we found really helps them get to the next, because then they can talk strategy, right?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:02.158)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:25.184)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But you have to do that self work first. Yeah.

Robbin (33:31.212)

leading self, then your team, then your organization, then in society. Gotta do the self work. And we do that too by, you know, we give assessments for around communication style, navigating conflict, strengths, values, core values, and that's something that folks really, when we do that work, people are like, I don't even know what my values are. Okay, this is a great exercise for you then because once you're rooted in,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:35.234)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:49.306)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (33:59.776)

understanding what you value, then you can create boundaries. Then you can determine, you know what, this is not the place for me, or this is the best place I've ever worked because I feel in harmony with what is happening in this culture. You already may be in harmony with the mission. If you want to tutor children, teach them the reeds so they don't pick up guns, and that's your life's calling and you work in an organization that does that, great.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:04.014)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (34:27.426)

But if the internal culture is in such disharmony with who you are and what you value, you're gonna struggle. It's gonna be hard at work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:34.07)

Yeah. Yeah, bring in the title. I have to say that is so spot on for me anyway. And our mutual acquaintance, Aiko, she was my first coach and she did the values exercise with me, the Dare to Lead values training. it was so life-changing and I would never have...

I would have sort of thrown around values as a buzzword maybe before that, or just been like, I don't know, I value kindness. Like not really thought thinking about it. It was so life-changing to understand what my two core values actually were. And it was really hard to figure out what they really were, but it unlocked so much for me, particularly why I was struggling in the workplace I was in, because there were things happening that were against my values.

and they weren't against everyone's values, but for me, it really explained why I was feeling the way that I was feeling. And I think it's such an important exercise, I totally agree. And if you are someone, and I just wanna say for so many people, having a coach isn't affordable or doesn't feel accessible. And I hope that everyone can have the experience of having a coach at some point in their life.

Robbin (35:53.612)

you

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:55.65)

going through that values exercise, you can do it online. Brene Brown has the values. You can go through the whole thing online by yourself, read Dare to Lead. If you don't have someone to do it with, find somebody at work that you wanna partner with and do it together. I think there's ways to get there if you're in an environment that you doesn't afford or appreciate coaching. And I will say too, and Robin, you're just making me think of the value of coaching and...

Robbin (36:09.24)

and

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:24.864)

not necessarily as a plug to buy our services, it is such a good thing to do for yourself. And I find particularly women, we spend a lot of time thinking about other people and really not a lot of time thinking about ourselves, especially in work-related contexts for all the reasons, but the patriarchy mostly. So that...

I just want to encourage people to think about giving yourself that gift. It's really not that expensive in the long term and it is a gift, right? Like it's a gift to you.

Robbin (37:00.792)

Peace.

It's sure, for sure.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:06.614)

It's one of the best things I think new leaders can do, because they just think of everything that Robin's been talking about, especially as you get higher up in the leadership chain. I think it gets lonelier and lonelier and lonelier, and you are not really wanting to show your underbelly. You're not wanting to show that you're having a hard time, or you're confused, or you're sad, or you're worried, or all of the things. You're supposed to just put on that happy face, which is a whole other problem.

Robbin (37:35.064)

you

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:36.174)

I just, think it's really, really cool that that's where you guys start from. And I know in your coaching work that you feel that reward too, but it's just, huge.

Robbin (37:48.546)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:50.858)

So what do you think, you you've seen a lot of organizations and companies, you've worked with a lot of people. What are you seeing that leaders are most challenged by in the workplaces that you go into and that you work with? That might be something that we could talk about here that might be an eye-opener for somebody who is listening.

Robbin (38:17.752)

I would raise two issues. One is the new intergenerational nature of work. And along with that intergenerational nature comes different values and perspectives about work. The other is burnout. People are tired, not necessarily from work. Everybody doesn't have

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:26.754)

Yep.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:41.133)

Yeah.

Robbin (38:46.07)

labor-intensive jobs, but there's a sense of burnout that people are really trying to push through to show up every day, and it's becoming harder and harder.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:54.392)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:59.478)

Yeah. Yeah. We talk about that a lot. And the burnout is tough because, I mean, I've talked about it a million times on the podcast, but like, that's why I'm here. I burned out and I burned out hard. And I consider myself still in recovery from that burnout. And it is six months in and I am still unpacking a lot of things that I went through, you know, in life, in the workplace. And I know the...

Robbin (39:00.792)

So yeah, those are the two things I'm gonna say.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:29.568)

everything that went down in 2020 in the US followed by the pandemic. It's just been a lot for everyone. And so, okay, I'm listening to this. I'm feeling like I'm burning out or I'm close. What would your recommendations be or what would you tell someone that you might be coaching who was telling you they're feeling that way?

Robbin (39:52.76)

When I'm coaching, and if I were coaching any of your listeners right now, I always start from values. So what are your values? Using Brene Brown's value exercise online is really great, but really spend some time there. Because if you say you value family, but you work seven days a week, 22 hours a day, and you have a family that you never see,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:01.219)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:10.114)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (40:20.524)

then I would just say move family a little bit down the line, down the list of values, until you can find a way to put it back at the top.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:24.713)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:29.2)

Mmm, I love that.

Robbin (40:30.888)

Always encourage people to create two plans. One plan is how you're going to stay and navigate this workspace and to what end, because you should have an end in mind, and you should start with the end, and you create a plan to go. I tell my clients that all the time. Yes, you create two plans, a plan to stay, how you're going to make it through.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:44.266)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:50.338)

my gosh, that's genius. I love that. my gosh.

Robbin (41:00.28)

until your end date that hopefully you select and then create a plan to exit. So what is your exit strategy from this place that is toxic and just harmful to you? It may not be toxic for everyone because again, we're all unique. We have different value sets, you know, we have different life constructs. So everybody's life looks different and you have to do those two things.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:13.986)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (41:29.762)

briefings, your values, a plan to stay and a plan to go.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:30.958)

I love that. Yes, because without your values really clear in your mind, those plans are hard because you don't know. I think in some ways you can't even say what it is that you're feeling burned out about, know, until you get those values down and do that self-reflection. So that is so smart. I absolutely love that because a lot of folks that I talk to,

are just, they feel so stuck. And that definitely was where I was too. I'm the only breadwinner in my family. Like I didn't feel like I could do anything other than stay or look for another job, which felt exhausting to me. Cause you know, I've done that. you know, we've all done that and starting over sounded hard and I, you know, all of the things. So this is such a cool way to get a little bit unstuck.

and we talked about this earlier too, but those little experiments to get yourself moving in a direction and see if it's feeling comfortable for you or the right way. I love that. Because I know, like for me, once I made the decision that I was leaving, didn't tell anyone about it, but once I knew and I had kind of started that exit plan in my mind, it was so much more tolerable to be in the workplace because I could just kind of be like, well, this is really annoying, but.

You know.

Robbin (43:03.832)

developed a coaching framework that I call Start at Stuck because we think we have to make some progress or this has to change or that has to change before I can start. No, you start right at stuck and you give yourself the opportunity to recognize, okay, I am stuck, but I know this is not working. So being in your body, being in touch with the physicality of your body,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:07.61)

nice.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:18.633)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (43:33.112)

Unfortunately, I have two female cousins, so two black women. One died of a heart attack at 46, and the other recently had a stroke at the age of 46. Very high power, high performing professionals working for major, major global companies. But at 46 years old, neither smoke or, you know, the stress, right?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:58.464)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Robbin (44:00.544)

So when you are stuck and you are attached to corporations and businesses, I find a lot with the corporate clients, people build their lives around what we call the golden handcuffs. Corporations will give you just enough resources to make you feel valued, right? In the short term. I don't care how many times six figures you earn, there's something in economics.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:14.926)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:20.706)

Yep. Yep.

Robbin (44:30.008)

as an aspiring economist, I have a degree in it, but never became a full economist, the law of diminishing marginal returns. I can love, love, love mint chocolate chip ice cream, but guess what? I cannot eat six gallons. I can maybe eat two scoops, but at some point I'm not gonna want anymore. And so what corporations have found out is if we change your title, if we give you a bonus,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:32.418)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:48.238)

you

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (44:58.9)

If we put you past six figures, now you're double six figures. Now you're triple six figures, right? You have an expensive. So they, they pile it on. So you're thinking, wow, they value me. We forget to value ourselves. And before we know it, golden handcuffs. I'm taking care of people in my family. I've created this lifestyle for myself, but man, man, am I burnt out? Am I miserable?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:58.936)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:27.49)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (45:27.688)

every morning when the alarm goes off. Right? And so people feel stuck also because there's this economic web that's been woven around them as well. And so a lot of corporate clients, they're dealing with the culture stuff, they're dealing with leaders who are not around and they're doing all the work. They're dealing with teams that are just not...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:50.018)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (45:57.45)

in harmony, but they can't leave because now they've created these lives for, by necessity. And I'm not saying that folks are doing this intentionally or, you know, some, you know, horrible reason, but a lot of times we're first generation. We're the first people to make it in these corporate jobs. We're the first people to have titles, right? So we're also bringing all of that, that historical familial legacy sort of burden with us.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:11.086)

Mm-mm.

you

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:21.24)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (46:26.824)

I'm the oldest child. I'm the one that was going to make it. I'm the one everybody counted on. So you have a lot of people in the workplace like that. And then when we talked a little bit about the intergenerational nature of workplaces now, and you see 70 year old folks still at work because they're going to retire when they retire and they're ready, but they have a completely different mindset about work. You don't leave this job.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:26.85)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:34.498)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (46:54.626)

So we're getting all these messages about why we should stay, even if we're being harmed, even if we're stuck in these spaces. So to get unstuck, you really have to lean in and say, okay, what is best for me next? We can't go back and change how we got there. We can't change any of what has already happened, but what is best for me next?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:54.786)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:12.983)

Hmm.

Robbin (47:22.626)

So, you're stuck, start.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:24.504)

What, how do you get there? Yeah, so what is best for me next? It's sort of like do the next right thing, I think is the sort of, you know, in grief, just to get through, just do the next thing in front of you. Is that kind of the concept?

Robbin (47:40.12)

That's right. It's do the next thing. It doesn't have to be the next best thing, the next right thing, but you have to create your own ladder, bridge, life raft out of the situation that is harmony. You cannot wait. I'll tell you a little story. I worked in an organization and I always have ideas. So just ideas, just ideas about how to make the work better. And I go and I go in and I'm really excited.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:44.884)

Mm-hmm. Just do something.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:55.331)

Yeah.

Robbin (48:10.232)

and my leader, my boss at the time, I'm from the generation where we say boss, so leader, boss, you know, I ran your proposal, this is really great, you know, the first question he asked me was, where did you get this from? And I was like, my brain, okay. And then he says, well, I didn't notice that you asked for $10,000 raise, right? I'm gonna be retiring in about three years and then that will...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:15.438)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:23.438)

Ugh.

Yikes.

Robbin (48:38.52)

put some money in the budget and then maybe by then you can, that was the day I quit. I didn't quit until like four months later, but that was the day that I quit that job. Because I said, he just told me that all this value that I'm adding that's going to make the organization, you know, more visible, all these things, I needed to wait three years to get a $10,000 raise. And I thought, doesn't align with, with.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:40.462)

you

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:44.652)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:49.006)

Good for you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:03.64)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (49:08.29)

who I am here. And I immediately that that next week I set out and I started looking for another job. So when people say people don't quit organizations, they don't quit organizations or the mission. They quit limited sighted leaders. And so hard at work your podcast, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful way to get people talking and hopefully to get leaders listening.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:22.284)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (49:38.658)

Do better, become the best version of the leader that you wanna be, right? That you would wanna work with, that you would wanna work for, that you would want representing your efforts in community. And a lot of times leaders are just stuck. So that's where it starts for me is I encourage everybody, right? Because again, you can lead yourself first and foremost, and then you lead your team, your organization and in society, but you've gotta start becoming

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:44.242)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:54.936)

they are.

Robbin (50:08.354)

the better version of the leader that you would want guiding you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:14.764)

Yeah, yeah, and it is just that first step. It just is, you know, I know you could be listening to this and thinking, my God, but I have all that responsibility and I don't know. And, you know, it's really, I know there are a lot of people who fell trapped, especially in that sort of middle management area where they are responsible for their team and they're trying to do the best work they can with their team to develop this human centric, you know.

team and way of working, but they've got people above them who aren't thinking that way and who make things hard. So like, if you want to give someone a raise, it can be very hard to get the money to do that in certain organizations, especially right now when everybody's on cuts or freezes or whatever. And it can feel really upsetting to be in that sort of squishy middle place.

But there's always, there seems to always be something you can do. And I love that you said that, because what I'm hoping is that there are leaders who will listen to this and who have that power to make change and will start to make changes so that it doesn't have to feel that way. And we can really center the humanness of everybody. you're very familiar with nonprofits and foundations and higher education and education.

What do you say to those managers who are really, really trying to do the good work of creating a human-centric workplace and learning and trying and growing, but they don't have enough power to change all the things and they're stuck in this system that's still patriarchal and white supremacy culture and not changing? What would you do if you were in that sort of, or how would you advise that person?

Robbin (52:08.888)

So I just kind of go back to what we talked about earlier. Get to know your people. And, you know, there are lots of workplace cultures at the Friday happy hour, the we're going to play kickball, all those things, right? Get to know your people, who they are and what they need.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:23.863)

You

Robbin (52:34.178)

And that happens in one-on-one conversations. I coach so many managers who are not having one-on-one conversations with their teams. Or they have a check-in, but they don't have a check-in framework. They're just kind of like, okay, give me what you got coming up this week. And I'm like, that's your opportunity to build connectivity with your people beyond the nuts and bolts, beyond the widgets, beyond the kids you're tutoring.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:49.198)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:03.715)

Yep.

Robbin (53:04.012)

right, is to really understand, hey, what is it that you need and kind of who are you in this workspace, right? Again, we don't need to overshare, we don't need to understand people's pathology or any of that, but we kind of need to know who is this person that's showing up every day delivering? So getting to know folks and then from there being very, very radically transparent about the organization.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:12.38)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:29.251)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Robbin (53:32.714)

If your organization is sinking and we're headed for, you know, reduction in force, we're headed for all these things. Tell people. And I think Brene Brown talks a lot about this in there to lead. It's like, you just have to let people know as soon as you know, because trust, you know, it takes forever to build and a moment to lose. don't, quote that exactly right, but that's, that's the gist of it. And so the more people feel like they can trust you, you're not just going to blind site them.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:48.354)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (54:01.858)

You're going to get in there and rumble as she says, as Dr. Brown says, you're going to rumble with them and say, listen, this is what is happening. Nobody's getting a raise. Now, if you're the kind of leader, you know, you're getting a 20 % raise, but nobody else is, then you should sort of ask yourself, like, how am I going to message this? What is going to be my moment of transparency with my team about why this is happening versus something else?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:05.038)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:11.394)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (54:31.704)

And then, you know, with leaders, sometimes some people say leaders are leaders because they go first or because they eat last or because they sacrifice the greatest, right? And so deciding what type of leader you want to be. And again, that's the work that can be done with a coach. That's the work that can be done on your own. There's so many leadership experts out there now. There's so many books and ways, but get yourself.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:32.126)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:41.539)

Yep.

Robbin (55:01.95)

some more awareness and understanding first of who you are and how you react to different frameworks and ways of being a leader. Develop what I call, and I do some work with some folks around this too, developing your leadership DNA. What is your leadership DNA? What are your strengths? What are your values? Right? How do you communicate? What's important to you when you're leading?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:20.327)

Robbin (55:30.744)

Because we sign up to be leaders. Never once have I met a leader who said, I didn't sign up for this. People say it, but those very same people didn't turn down the opportunity to lead. Right? You didn't sign up for it, but you didn't have to accept it. Right? So yes. So as leaders, getting in that space of being transparent and honest with your people, knowing who they are, understanding what it is they.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:32.792)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:36.266)

You

Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:40.923)

Right, right, right.

Right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:58.424)

I love that so much. We're talking about starting at stock. Is that something that people can sign up for? Are you offering it right now? Awesome.

Robbin (56:07.0)

Absolutely, absolutely. It's a start, it's a start. It gives folks that opportunity to start all the things we just said. Where are you now? Where are your values? What is it that needs to change? Because a lot of times it's the job, but sometimes it's the stuff outside of work that needs to change. So I give folks like a two hour mini retreat and sort of their own personal strategic planning session. We talk about values and goals and

Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:25.005)

Mm-hmm.

Robbin (56:36.374)

What needs to change? know, money is not everybody's top value. Some people it is, you know, but I favor well-being, liberation and joy. When I think about what my values are, that's what they are. And that's for myself and for others. I want others to be well. I want others to experience joy. And I want others to be free, whatever freedom means for themselves. So, yes, start it stuck.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:38.048)

I love that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:58.926)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Where can... We'll put a link in the show notes, but they can find that on your website. Is that where folks can go? Awesome. RobinHudson.com. Two B's in Robin. And then Gradient, if folks are interested in learning more about that for coming in, are you guys actively working with new clients right now? Excellent. Go to their website and just read it. If I still worked in an organization, I would be like, we need to hire this...

Robbin (57:08.994)

Yes, yep.

Robbin (57:21.356)

We are.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (57:31.182)

immediately. It's just such a cool. No, I mean, it's, well, obviously it's the stuff I believe in, right? But it took me a long time to get there. So I think it would be so helpful for organizations, especially maybe for those middle managers who can suggest it to those leaders who might get their minds moved a little bit into a space of reflection. Well, thank you so much, Robin. This has been amazing. I'm gonna ask you my last question, which is,

Robbin (57:31.425)

that's awesome. You're so kind.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:00.31)

If you were going to give a TED Talk on something other than your work expertise, what would it be on and why?

Robbin (58:07.264)

It would be on the legacy of Southern cuisine.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:15.694)

Ooh!

Robbin (58:16.728)

And I say that because as I started off by saying in my introduction, I did not know my maternal grandmother who was born in rural Mississippi in 1925. But throughout my childhood and my entire life, people have always recalled her cooking. And I like to say she would be, you know, an executive chef to cuisine somewhere by today's standards. But that's what

Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:42.316)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robbin (58:45.89)

what she did, she was a cook, right? In a restaurant where she couldn't even walk through the front door. And so I just have this fascination with food and culture and particularly the foods that she made and maybe what they would symbolize. If I could turn that into a really creative TED Talk, I would do.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:52.822)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:05.578)

You totally can. love that. Do you have any recipes or were some of the recipes passed down?

Robbin (59:09.176)

None of them passed down because she didn't cook by recipe, which is the magic of why I think that topic is so fascinating. And my mother did not like to be anywhere near the kitchen and missed all the lessons and often tries to recall, you know, what she saw her mother do, but no recipes, no recipes to be found anywhere. But people to this day will remark about

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:15.158)

Right, right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:19.65)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:24.748)

no.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:33.155)

Yeah.

Robbin (59:39.074)

for cooking and how they just remember how it looked, how it tasted, the visual appeal and all of it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (59:45.634)

I love that, the legacy for sure. Well, I will go to that Ted Talk and also just thank you so much, Robin. It was really nice to have you.