Episode 20: From Math to Management: Ryan Stadt on People-First Leadership
How to train better leaders—even without a budget
Equitable leadership isn’t a buzzword. It’s the work.
Summary
In this episode of Hard at Work, Ellen is joined by Ryan Stadt—Senior Talent and Inclusion Manager at Sengage Group and executive coach—for a conversation that gets real about what it actually takes to support and grow people-centered leaders. Ryan shares what it looks like when leadership development is fully resourced and taken seriously—and how even organizations without big budgets can design meaningful programs for new managers. From pulse surveys and coaching cohorts to the difference between protecting your team and empowering them, this episode offers both tactical tools and deep insight. Ellen and Ryan also talk openly about the current backlash against DEI, how to keep doing the work even if you stop using the acronym, and why equity-focused change starts with small but intentional decisions. Whether you’re a burned-out middle manager, an HR leader trying to shift workplace culture, or just someone trying to lead without losing your mind, there’s something here for you. Oh—and you’ll definitely want Ryan’s fiction recs. You’ll hear about: the biggest mindset traps new managers fall into, why slowing down is essential to good leadership, what to delegate (and how), the right way to check in with your team, and why designing your own leadership program might be the best move you can make.
Here are the resources that we talked about in the episode:
Loretta Ross’s book Calling In: How to Make Change with People You’d Rather Cancel
Francis Frei TED Talk and book Unleashed (leadership and trust-building resource)
Brené Brown’s book Dare to Lead
Ryan’s recommended fiction authors/books: Chaim Potok, Ursula Le Guin, James Baldwin, Shusaku Endo, Robin Wall Kimmerer (Braiding Sweetgrass), Ada Limón, Ocean Vuong, Zora Neale Hurston
Takeaways
Leadership is a mindset shift, not just a title change. Moving from individual contributor to people leader means redefining where your value comes from.
Delegation starts with clarity. Clearly define outcomes—not just tasks—and let go of needing everything done your way.
Fair workplaces aren’t built by buzzwords. They’re shaped by data, reflection, trust, and real flexibility—like open bereavement policies and anonymous pulse checks.
Slowing down doesn’t need to take an hour. Brief practices like 3-word check-ins and end-of-day reflections can build emotional intelligence over time.
White leaders have a role in equity work. It's not about centering yourself—it’s about showing up, listening deeply, and quietly leveraging your privilege to shift systems.
Notable Quotes
“Leadership means letting go of your way, not your standards.”
“If you’re doing all the emotional labor for your team, you’re also taking away their chance to grow.”
“Don’t be the hero. Be the leader who asks the right questions.”
“Workplaces don’t need more performative values—they need actual systems that treat people like humans.”
“The most human thing you can do at work? Make space for someone else's story.”
Chapters
00:00 – Intro & Meet Ryan Stadt
01:30 – Ryan’s Path: Philosophy, Teaching, Tech, Leadership
04:00 – What New Manager Support Actually Looks Like
08:20 – Challenges Facing Today’s Leaders
11:30 – The DEI Backlash & Doing the Work Anyway
13:30 – How White Leaders Can Show Up Without Centering Themselves
17:00 – Quick Wins for Slowing Down at Work
20:00 – How Pulse Surveys Build Trust
24:30 – What to Do When Your Team’s Energy Dips
28:00 – Why Protecting Your Team Isn’t Always Helpful
30:15 – The Change Curve & How to Lead Through It
34:30 – Delegation, Identity, and Letting Go
39:00 – Design Your Own Leadership Development Plan
42:00 – Read More Fiction, Lead More Humanely
44:00 – Recommended Resources (Fiction + Nonfiction)
46:00 – The TED Talk Ryan Would Give
Keywords: burnout, leadership development, delegation at work, people management, workplace equity, DEI backlash, inclusive leadership, emotional intelligence at work, HR best practices, new manager training, psychological safety, executive coaching, workplace flexibility, healthy work culture, employee engagement
Transcript:
Ellen (speaker 1): Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Hard at Work. I'm super excited to bring on my guest today, Ryan Stadt, who is the Senior Talent and Inclusion Manager at Cengage Group and he's an executive coach too. And Ryan, I'm just super happy to have you here. Thank you for being here.
Ryan (speaker 2)Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited.
(Ellen): I appreciate you working through our technical difficulties at the beginning.
(Ryan): There's always some.
Speaker 1:
So we're gonna get into it, but one of the reasons I really wanted to have Ryan on is because I really like to make sure that we're talking to people who are actually out in the field doing the work, because we love experts and we learn so much from experts, but we also need to talk to real people so we can learn from each other and also make sure that what we're talking about really works in the field.
Speaker 2 (01:18.222)
Ryan is that person and has some really exciting things going on at the job that he does. But why don't you just give us your 60 second Wikipedia, tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll get into it.
Yeah, yeah, sure. So that title, Senior Talent and Inclusion Manager, what it really means is I run talent development programs and partner sometimes on more inclusion oriented programs. Although other people in my team report into the same leader tend to do more of that work. But I'll tell you my brief history, which is I have an undergraduate degree in philosophy with a little bit of math.
and I taught high school math for a few years before I burned out on that. So my master's degree is actually secondary math instruction and then, moved into tech for a few years before I pivoted into talent development and then focused in on leadership development, which is what I do now. So I am a coach. I often leave that adjective free because I do executive coaching, as you mentioned, but I also really liked doing the transition coaching, some of deeper work for people who are trying to figure out what's next.
but I've run onboarding. I've run new people leader programs. use people leader as the term at Cengage. Actually, sometimes I use manager. Sometimes I use people here. So there's my disclaimer. I always try to pause in the middle of that phrase. Otherwise it sounds like I'm talking about cannibalism, but people leader programming, aspiring, aspiring leaders. I've done, then right now, what it mostly, what I do is targeted strategic talent programs.
Yikes.
Speaker 1 (02:57.692)
especially for directors and VPs, strategic talent planning type type stuff, looking at where we need to develop our leaders and what is coming down the road in terms of leadership development and, targeting those programs at the populations that we have in the populations we think we will have. so that's the short version.
love it. And when we got together to chat before this episode, was like, my mind was blown by the amount of work that your company does in terms of developing leaders, which is not the norm in every place. And definitely not in the more social sector, public sector where I come from, mostly just because we don't have the resources. I don't think it's for lack of wanting to do it, but I'm curious and I know a lot of my listeners are
from the same sector I am, what does that look like? Can you give me a quick overview of like, okay, someone's a new manager at your company. What kind of support do they get and what can they expect?
Yeah. Yeah. So I'll tell you a little bit about our programs and I'll also give you my like standard disclaimer that views are my own. so I'm speaking sort of both as an individual and as a person who works as engaged group, but, for new, for new managers, what we tend to do, and this is actually being redesigned right now. So I'm talking about what we've done the past couple of years and it's, it's being shifted a bit, but, we run a two day, two half day.
workshop where we focus on trust and listening and inquiry and understanding yourself as a leader because you are your primary tool when you're leading people. So we do that work and then they go into a group coaching program where they there's some self-paced content and they meet once a month with a coach to talk through how it's going with applying that content.
Speaker 1 (05:00.014)
So trying to support them through their first roughly six months of having direct reports, doing that deeper internal work at the same time as they're trying to manage everything else on their plate because they're all of the logistics of like your HR information system and approving expense reports and road mapping. of the really important but very system oriented type work.
We're trying to support them in the personal growth and the mindset development at the same time.
which is so important. It's funny, I call that the boring stuff, but it is so important. And a lot of times we focus on that, like, okay, are we checking the boxes? We talked about that on this podcast before, but like, let's make sure we're in compliance and like we're following all the rules and teaching them how to not get themselves in trouble as a leader, but not as much on the human centered work. And so I'm...
excited to hear that that's happening. Do you know much about what brought that on or how long you all have been doing that? Or is it more common than I'm seeing in smaller companies or bigger companies?
So Cengage has about 4,000 full-time employees. And I think companies our size and larger, it's pretty common to have something along the lines of what I'm describing. Because there's a bigger central team that can do it. There's just, like you were saying, more resources. It's definitely been going on the whole time that I've been at this company, which is 11 years now. So when I first got direct reports back when I was in the tech team in the company,
Speaker 1 (06:46.478)
I went through a similar kind of program to what I was describing. We had an external person come in who was a coach who thinks about these sorts of things and facilitated I think a one full day in-person session for us. And when I talk to people out there, peers at other companies, they're generally thinking about these things. But then when I talk to people at smaller companies, startups or the world you come from, like nonprofits, social sector type stuff,
They're so understaffed, under-resourced sometimes that it's hard to slow down because that's what the work requires. It requires slowing down for a good chunk of time and saying, I'm not gonna check email, I'm not gonna check Slack or Teams or whatever, and I'm just gonna be making some space to notice and to ruminate and zoom out for a little while.
Your philosophy major is showing. No, I'm just kidding.
It will. I hope it does. I laugh at myself and I'm grateful for it.
Yeah. No, it's such a cool background, actually. It's so interesting. Those of us who sort of found our way into liking this kind of work, we all have such a, I mean, I was a theater major, so it's not like I have much to talk about, but philosophy was actually really hard for me. like very, it's very deep, but I know that that can definitely be lending some tools and frameworks and, you know, just having that background is actually pretty cool. So I'm glad you have it. So we talk about slowing down.
Speaker 2 (08:20.64)
And I'm trying to think about, and you and I will get into it like, okay, if I am a leader or an HR professional in a smaller company or a social sector company that doesn't have the resources to have a giant team to do this kind of work, what are some of the things that we could do? How could we make it happen? In order to get there, I wanna hear a little bit about...
what you think the biggest challenges are for managers right now, both new and seasoned, because I think there's a lot for both. when another reason we're talking is because you also care about equitable and healthy workplaces. how do we get, know, like what are the biggest things that we're focusing on right now when you're training new leaders in this environment to run an equitable and healthy workplace?
Yeah. Yeah. So some of those challenges are constant have not changed as long as people have been trying to lead other people. and some of them are fresh. the, the more evergreen challenges, feedback, giving it, receiving it, delegation, there there's one, that big mindset shift that happens when you go from individual contributor, that's obviously the corporate jargon term.
But when you go from not having to worry about what other people are doing to having to worry about what other people are doing, you have to shift where you get your sense of value. And that's where I think delegation is a challenge partly because of that. But then there's also this mindset shift that I see as difficult sometimes where you go from needing to have all the answers to needing to know where to go to find answers and needing to trust other people's answers.
Mmm.
Speaker 1 (10:10.938)
so that, that's a big challenge. I also sometimes see this kind of strange challenge where, where people will step into that leadership role and kind of see themselves as the protector of their team, which is a very natural and well-intentioned thing. but then inadvertently brings up all, all kinds of other challenges where like you're not, you're, you're shielding your team a little bit, maybe from things that they should be exposed to.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:38.626)
You might be limiting the amount of growth that they could be doing. You might actually start to develop a perception of your team as a silo. You hear that word in the corporate.
We say it all the time. Don't worry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then, like, and that can actually hurt your team. You have to think of yourself as like a two way liaison when you're a leader like that. And that can be a real challenge for people leaders sometimes. And then there's the more recent ones. And, you know, at our point in history in the United States, a little bit globally as well. I think one of the biggest
the biggest challenges we're seeing obviously is the demonization of the term DEI. And so a lot of thought leaders in that space are stepping away from that term while trying to continue doing the work. I think the danger for a lot of us as practitioners and as leaders is abandoning the work because we feel like it's too much of a third rail, a hot topic. And I think we have to continue doing the work even if we abandon the term DEI, which is fine. People have been doing that work for
decades, hundreds of years without calling it that. We can call it something different. know, Lily Zhang, a thought leader in this space has started using the term fair fairness, access, inclusion and representation. yeah, I love their work. It's great.
Speaker 2 (11:59.085)
love that.
Beijing is amazing. I will put their info in the comments, but I follow them on LinkedIn and they are so good.
Yeah, and I'll drop a lot of names in this conversation. Great. That's only number one. Yeah. So I think it's like the danger there is shying away being afraid of missteps when we should just be thinking about the work that needs to be done and doing it. And in that space, I think the work is looking at hiring practices, retention data, meeting norms, facility design, workload, flexibility, time off policies.
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (12:37.91)
One of the things I'm really proud that we do at Cengage is like bereavement does not have a stipulation on what that means for you. So some companies out there I've heard have strict policies. It has to be like a nuclear family member to take bereavement time. As if that's like the only loss you could experience in your life that would make it hard for you to focus on work.
Yeah, sometimes those are the people you're not closest to actually.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so we don't have that. It's, you have bereavement time if you need it. And you just have to talk to the leaves team about that. so that, that sort of thing, that's the work. we don't have to call it anything in particular to continue focusing on equitable, healthy workplaces.
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (13:21.144)
Yeah, that's what I've been using is equitable and healthy rather than equal because that's a whole other thing that we talk about a lot. So I'm just gonna call a spade a spade. We're two white people talking about this. one of the things that Ryan said when I asked him to be on the podcast was like, are you sure you want a cis white dude on your podcast? And I said, of course, because we wanna talk to people who are actually making change in the workplace. And one of the things that I've talked about is
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:48.878)
Okay, we have a lot of privilege as white people in the workplace. Yes, it doesn't work that great for women, but I still have privilege that comes from being white. And it's how we use that and choose to use that that will really make change, particularly white men. Can you talk a little bit about that? how is that showing up for you right now? And like, if there were other people listening who might be a little...
nervous about taking action, other white people who might be nervous about taking action, like what would you tell them?
Yeah, speaking only as myself here. Sure. I think I try to put myself in a learning mindset with this stuff. And at the same time, not a passively learning mindset. And that's where the challenge is for me. But for, Ryan's stat, I am more likely to just like ingest information and listen too much and then not actually do anything with that information. Yep. And so I have to balance that, you know, showing up into a space where
I have, I'm like the intersectionality null set and like thinking, that's where it's coming out. Yeah. Thinking about like, what does that mean for me for like any unearned advantages that I might have in being heard or in being able to interrupt with impunity or like things like that. And just, just knowing that I also try to be careful not to over-acknowledge it because then
There's your math major. You're showing it all.
Speaker 1 (15:22.842)
then I'm the focus again. So just sort of like trusting my ideas, listening more than I talk, being willing to change the ideas that I have, but trying to just get in there and like focus on that list of things that are the work that I was talking about earlier that I hear from other people and kind of trying to like mentally extend that checklist all the time of like things that I could be thinking about, you know, like
When I send somebody an email, I try to translate time into their time zone. I try to do little things like that to remind myself that I am not the center of the universe and that ways that I've been socialized might make it easier for me to assume that I am. that's how I approach it. Well, I try to be. I'm certainly not all the time, of course.
love that. Very other focus.
Speaker 2 (16:18.414)
No, but that mentality, and I think that that is, I guess I'm just putting together for folks who want to be making a change in the workplace and for whom the workplace is not too bad for them. The other focusedness is, that's not a word, but you know what I mean, is a really good mindset to be in. And I'm really struck by Lily's term fair because all of those things that you listed out, it's like, yeah,
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:48.3)
this, we actually need to make change in the system to be fair and it will be fair for everyone. And you know, so it's, it's, I like how you were saying you focus on those things. Like, okay, I'm going to push these things through because I know that like equitable pay and being able to work from home and that balance and the bereavement and all of that is actually what's what people need. They need that sort of flexibility because not everybody's the same. And also
generosity, I would say, to sort of trust that everybody's there to do a good job, but some people need different accommodations than others. that's part of what you do is provide that, Make sure that's advocated for.
Yeah, yeah, where I can, certainly. I also lean a lot on my coach training. I you and I share that background. And one of the things that I really tried to learn through that process was even when somebody looks like they have identity overlap with me, they may not. Their story is theirs, my story is mine. And so trying to learn to assume that we are different actually helps me show up in a space and not assume that any...
any wisdom that I have gathered in my life necessarily applies.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Everyone should go through coach training, I think, because it was it was one of the hardest and best things I've ever done because the whole point of the program that Ryan and I both said, not at the same time, but was that you have to know yourself first before you can coach. And so it was a surprising it was a surprising self journey that we all had to go through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Harrowing for sure. You're like, I don't want to look at that. But, you know, that actually gets back to, you know,
Speaker 2 (18:38.658)
this concept of slowing down and making space, which is a lot of what we learned in coach training is like make space to reflect. It's so hard to do in workplaces. What do you think makes it a priority? how can a workplace really start to prioritize that space and time for its employees, whether they're new managers or
frontline workers or whatever, but everybody's gonna need some of that space and time as they're learning in their roles, as they're working with a new group of people, you know, like it's human centered. So we have to be thinking about humans. What do you think, what could change that could help folks prioritize that? That's a big question. So you don't have to have all the answers, but I'm curious.
Yeah. You know, the first thing that comes up to me is, focus on things that don't take a lot of time. Because I think when, when you talk about making space in your, in your day and your thinking, a lot of people sort of instantly tense up and like, I don't have time as it is. How am I going to set aside an hour of my morning or something? That's, that's what people tend to hear. but I say, look for the practices as a, as an organization and as an individual that just help you briefly reflect.
So I love the Brene Brown three word check-in. At the beginning of a meeting, just everybody, what are the three words that describe how you're showing up right now? And you don't have to say anything about them, you don't have to do anything with them, but it just helps you recognize what kind of space you're in and then show up more presently with the people that you're meeting with, talking with, whatever. And then as an individual, just like the quick.
write down how you feel at the end of a day. I think that kind of practice can be so powerful. It's brief. It doesn't have to be long, but just noticing how you're collectively and individually can be huge because then you can start to see the patterns where like, I'm feeling this way a lot. I wonder if other people are and start that conversation. Or I'm noticing as a team,
Speaker 1 (20:58.614)
we're showing up feeling really stressed out at every team meeting. What's that about? Can we talk about whether there's a systemic fix that we can make to that? So that you're starting to notice that you're starting to build collective trust. I would also say for organizations that have the resources to do it, we have an engagement survey that we do yearly and then we do a pulse check-in over the summer every year. That is a huge part of reflecting as an organization.
and it gives you a lot of good data. I know there's some conversation out there, like, you know, from talking shop with somebody about like, well, once a year, it's this big thing, maybe we should be looking for smaller, quicker ways to gather that intel. Yes, if you can, but at the very least doing some kind of engagement survey and getting that information so that you know how people in your organization are feeling and you're hearing from them, what are some of the systemic issues and possible fixes?
love that. And I have a guest who is actually coming out this Friday, but no one knows what day it is. So it doesn't matter necessarily, but an episode with Mo Cotton Kelly, who is a leader at the University of Connecticut and similar to you, someone who's in the workplace that I really want to talk to about like what's actually going on out there and what can we do? And she says they do pulse checks like frequently and they just did a huge reorgan. That's been really helpful in kind of understanding what's going on.
And I love that concept, because a pulse check can just be like two questions, right? It doesn't even have, because I'm thinking we did the Gallup survey every year, the employee engagement survey, which is kind of longer and a little bit more corporatey feeling, definitely important data. But I love the concept of the pulse check. So like, if you were going to do that, what are some good questions you might put in that?
Well, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna steal them from my chief people officer. she will often begin. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Jerry. She will often begin our HR team meetings. I'm in the HR team with like, where are you with your personal enthusiasm toward work today? Scale of one to five. That's a good one.
Speaker 2 (23:09.186)
OOF
Speaker 2 (23:12.588)
I love that.
there might be a second one I'm forgetting, but that's the main one. Like just, just a one question check in. And then she actually tracks that over time. So you can see where the, where the dips in the, in the mountains. but just those, just those quick, emotion checks without necessarily putting anybody on the spot.
being more vulnerable than they want to be, making it anonymous, all those kinds of productions. But I love that kind of thing.
That is such an easy thing to do with like a Google form or a Microsoft form. could do that. Yeah, you could do it so quickly and make it anonymous. Yes, it's harder if you have smaller teams. So that might need to be an in-person check-in and hopefully you're building trust with your team so they are willing to be that vulnerable with you. But I love, love, love that. Because, so I'm a manager and I'm seeing that that number is going down.
Doom poll,
Speaker 2 (24:19.01)
What are some things that I might do?
You ask, would be my first thing there. And that's a judgment call. Do you have a big team? Then maybe don't ask people to just start talking about it with 30 or 40 people in the room. Right. Unless you have a lot of trust built already. But maybe you do. Maybe you have a really vocal team that has that trust and you can have like a large group conversation about it. Focus groups are always an option. Three or four people at a time.
just like, I've noticed this trend. What are you all feeling and what are you willing to share about it? Again, trust has to be built there or otherwise you're getting masks.
people.
but then I always, I always like to advise leaders, create your own opinion before you start asking people for theirs. there, there is a danger of asking for feedback too quickly, or you're, kind of asking other people to do like workplace, emotional labor for you. Yeah. And doing some of that thinking and observing yourself so that you have something to start from and ask questions about can, can really be beneficial. So,
Speaker 2 (25:20.526)
Speaker 1 (25:31.278)
Start looking at people's calendars. If you can at least see their time blocks, they might have hidden the actual meetings from you, but you can go look, see are they booked up an entire day? That could be a reason they're not feeling enthusiastic about their work. Start looking at the events that have happened in the company or in the marketplace out there. There may be a really obvious explanation. You might already know it as soon as you see the dip, you're like, yeah, I was kind of expecting that.
But also asking about the climbs too, like, hey, I'm noticing people are feeling more enthusiastic. Where's that coming from? They might be more willing to talk about that. And that could be a way to build trust for the times when it dips and you want to ask about that. But get creative. You're in the organization, if you're that leader, and you might be able to think of some ways that you could really quickly, with minimal effort, form a hypothesis and then start asking about the hypothesis.
love that.
Speaker 2 (26:31.842)
want to go back to something you said about the protecting of the team because definitely been there before and it's making me think about it because when you're in an environment where as the manager, you're often in a place where you're in the middle and you can't necessarily control what is being thrown down at you from on high. Sometimes you can, hopefully you can in a great organization you can, but sometimes you're just trying to keep your team.
moving and not sad. And, you know, especially in environments, you know, that I'm used to, which are there's, there's too much work. And it's all in, it's all important because you're doing something, you know, that is helpful to people, you're helping others as part of the work that you're doing. So it feels like you can never be done with it, right? Very common in the nonprofit sector. So it's, I guess,
I'm trying to figure out what my question is, but it's kind of like.
when you don't have that control, but you have a team. I think you're right. Your first instinct is I'm going to shield them because that's the only thing I have control over is how I can manage them and I'll take on more work or I'll make sure they don't know about that because it's too scary or whatever. How do you buck some of those instincts? Like you're right in the middle there. You're that middle manager. What are the things that you need to draw on so that you're
bringing your team into the loop and not just acting as a shield.
Speaker 1 (28:11.49)
Yeah, that's a really good
It's a really long question, I'm sorry.
No, the things you have to draw on, think the first thing that comes to mind is that we often, I think, almost act like parents when we have a team. Because that's just an early life model we have for authority. So like when I'm in authority, I almost default into parent mode sometimes. Not all the time, of course, and I don't wanna take that too far, but the instinct there is like,
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (28:45.346)
protect, don't let things hurt my team. They're adults, they can handle stuff. So I think the thing to draw on there is balancing the fact that you do have to filter some things. One of the things I think you have to filter is your own reaction to change and overwhelm because you don't wanna put that on your team.
Mm-hmm.
but you also want to be honest and you want to make room for their reaction. So I've seen leaders do this really well where they kind of deliver some kind of update to their team that they know might stress them out. Maybe they know for certain that it will, but they deliver it very neutrally and factually and then ask, how are you feeling about that? I always really admire that approach because you're not front loading the emotion that you think they're gonna have.
And then you're just creating space for them to react to it and process it a little bit and you're not pushing back on their reactions. You're just gathering those reactions and then, and then you decide what to do with that as a leader. Do you make it a group conversation? Do you, do you see lots of different reactions? So it's going to be more one-on-one conversations, helping people reach their own conclusion about what they want to do. I think a lot about the change curve, the Kubler Ross change curve here.
Which is about that.
Speaker 1 (30:12.706)
which really the same as the stages of grief, Elizabeth Kubler Ross in the mid 20th century research this and put this model together where you kind of you move through this like dip in disengagement or dip in engagement, like this valley of disengagement when there when some kind of change happens, you're grieving the loss of what used to be and you're not sure whether you want to continue, you know, in the context we're talking about, whether you want to continue in this job or this company or, or this field, whatever it is.
And then you have a decision to make. you exiting or are you starting to come to terms, find your new, your space for agency, your new place in all of this and kind of climb out of that valley and reach some kind of commitment. I think as a leader, you, you can't assume that people are going to climb out of that and you can't rush them through it. And so there's, there's this, I think this very frank conversation about like, what do want to do with what you're feeling and how can I support you here? And not assuming anything, but asking,
That's the main thing that comes up for me.
I love that. I love that. And I will say, you know, if anyone who has worked for me in the past, like I was not great at that because there's a, think for a lot of us who have the need to be liked as a big part of our personalities. And there's so much juicy backstory to that for a lot of us about why that is, but it,
For me, I wanted to commiserate with them. So a lot of times I wanted to be like, I know this really sucks. I'm so sorry. I will do my best to talk to so and so about it. But I would deliver it with that front loading because I wanted them to know I was in their corner. And wow, this is such a better way to do it. I mean, how great. Because it's still incredibly supportive and on their side.
Speaker 2 (32:12.172)
but it's the neutral delivery and then letting them have their own conclusions because they surprised me all the time. I would think so-and-so is gonna hate this and they would be like, no, it's cool. So I had to really, it's smart to put your biases aside and just be as neutral as possible and then ask that really important support question.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's crucial. I think it's so tempting for me. And I think everybody in the world to say like, okay, I think I know what support my team's going to need. I'll figure it out, you know, and I'll just, I'll come with the solution delivered to them. but that, that also heads off an opportunity for development for them sometimes where your team might, there might be a growth opportunity embedded in this change. and by, by just leaving the field open,
they might find an opportunity that you didn't know was there. They might learn to be more comfortable with discomfort. There's a whole lot of things you can learn there. And I'm not talking about like finding the silver lining in a really, really shitty situation. You gotta acknowledge that there are times that there's like a toxic place or a leader, that exists, but perhaps not as often as we assume.
work.
Speaker 2 (33:31.15)
Yeah. What might, and we talk about this a lot, but like what might feel toxic to one person might not feel toxic to another person based on lots of things, you know, like I've come away from workplaces that I would call toxic that other people are thriving in. it really is, um, it can vary too. So your team is not all going to think the same way and they're not all going to think the same way as you. So, yeah, I love that. love that. We were, okay. So we were talking about challenges for managers and
I want to go back to that sort of delegation piece if you don't mind, because I think when you're a new manager and this conversation that we were just having is making me think of this, trusting your team to do the work when you're going from that individual contributor to a leader or a people, what did you call them? People leader. A people leader. Yeah. That makes me think of the purple people leader. Yes, I know. there's many acronyms. But yeah, that can be the hardest.
And even with seasoned leaders, like when I go in and do retreats or coaching, I'm like, ooh, you are holding on real tight to lots of things because you're afraid that if you let go, I don't know, lots of things could happen. You might lose your identity. You might not feel useful anymore. It's scary to let go. That nebulous space of not being a contributor in the way you used to be is really hard. What are some ways that you all kind of teach people
to move through that and learn how as new leaders to really trust their teams.
Yeah. So I think it starts with defining the outcomes. So when, when you're not delegating, you can often play fast and loose with that. And so you, you kind of feel it out and you figured out, and then you eventually get to something that other people are happy with or that you're happy with and then you deliver it. Um, delegating, think you have to clearly articulate the outcome or the problem that you need solved. And you have to have done a little bit of thinking about that to refine it or.
Speaker 2 (35:13.804)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (35:33.578)
Or you could do that together with the person you're delegating it to, but you have to start with defining the outcome. And that, I think that in and of itself is a barrier for a lot of people, including me. It's like, that's hard. Like that, I have to think a lot to do that. And then there's letting go of the need to see things done the way you would do them.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:50.519)
Yup.
Speaker 2 (36:00.706)
Mm-hmm.
So the, and that's a tricky balance because a of it's so hard because a lot of times people get promoted into a leadership position because they know what good looks like in their field. And they do need to continue to provide that when they're leading. That's part of your value as a leader is knowing what good looks like and being able to, to hold your team to that and grow your team toward that. But also being able to let go of your exact version of what good looks like because
Yeah
Speaker 1 (36:32.77)
that can be limiting. So that's one of the things we talk about sometimes. I also think it's hard to get to a point where you see your value as providing perspective and asking the right questions as a leader. So I'm meeting in my coaching background there a little bit too. But when you delegate and you're following up,
Your value is coming from, have you thought about this or how are you going to address this possibility? And so you're, you're laying out the, the, the field of potential missteps that, that are out there because you might know what they are. And you're not telling people how to avoid them. You're telling people that they're there.
Yeah.
And then you're letting them figure out how they're going to deal with that. And so, so the value, the value, it's a big shift. It's a, it's a huge shift for me and many people. but it's a lot of that comes through using your leader as a, kind of a coach to help you notice that. I also am a big fan of telling your team what you're working on as a leader. And so being explicit about like, Hey, I'm working on delegating. Here's how I want to do it. Let me know.
I love.
Speaker 2 (37:50.51)
Mm-hmm.
Am I overstepping here? Is it working? Do you have what you need from me? Do you need less of me? And being open to them saying yes.
So that's what we called another guest called it. It's simple, but not easy. It's a simple thing that you can do. Of course, why wouldn't you do that? But we don't think to do that. And I often are so vulnerable as new leaders, especially if we haven't had great training. And we may not have great models that have taught us over the years.
Yeah, it's really easy to just not be willing to show that underbelly to your team. But what an important thing to do.
Totally, totally. And the last thing I'll say there is agree on the check-in frequency in advance when you're delegating something. I see a lot of people get frustrated about this, like this person's not coming back to me with this. And I feel like I can't ask them. And I say, well, did you agree together on when you were gonna check in? Because if you do, then nobody's frustrated. I'm gonna check in in a week. Your employee's not gonna feel like you're nagging. They're gonna expect that they're giving you an update at that point, and then you'll go from there.
Speaker 2 (39:12.556)
What good advice. I love that. Love it, love it. All right. So I'm trying to think of that. I mean, we've gone all over the place, which is totally awesome and normal for this. But we've talked about some of the pitfalls that new leaders face and how we might look at that. We've talked about what you can do if you don't have an internal leadership program. So if you're a new leader or a seasoned leader,
There's some good tips here for how to keep your work human-centric. I would say like, sum that up. What do you think is the best thing that we can do right now to help ourselves be more human-centric leaders?
I have, can I do two best things?
You bet. There's no rules on this podcast.
New rules, just right. So the first one is kind of design your own leadership program. If there isn't one in place, think about three main categories of things, formal, informal, and social training. Love that. So formal is like go out there, look for books. I'm happy to recommend some resources, but look for books, podcasts, videos, online courses, in-person courses, whatever. Find the formal training that is going to address what you need.
Speaker 1 (40:32.834)
Informal is thinking about the practices and the development areas that you want to focus on in your everyday work that aren't going to take extra time but are just going to shift your attention. And then social, build a network of peers. Find the people you trust who are going to challenge your perspective, who are going to help you uncover the stories you're telling yourself without knowing it, who are going to offer emotional support. That's, think, crucial. The other thing...
My recommendation is to read more fiction.
I love that.
because of so much of what we have to do as leaders and as humans is uncover the stories that we are living and that we are we've accepted without knowing it and Find more stories out there that we haven't heard about yet That has so many benefits building empathy Offering alternative perspectives helping us hold contradictory things intention as true at the same time and we're narrative creatures, so
Find stories that are impactful for you that are outside of your realm of experience. It could be books, poetry, just movies from other cultures. Yeah, but just like get out of your own story and find other meaningful stories. I'm stealing this a little bit from my wife. We decided this year that she's only reading books in translation so that she can see other ways of
Speaker 1 (42:07.054)
telling stories and narrative arcs and things like that. She thinks about these things a lot, but that's, I think that's a big recommendation that I have because I think we are in a time in the United States that makes nuance tricky. And so we have to find ways to expose ourselves to nuance.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:29.758)
love that because I mean, as long as all the books aren't banned, have hopefully the opportunity to at least go online and buy all the books we want. Yeah. But our libraries hopefully can keep books in there that are banned. But I love that because that's it's storytelling is just it's how we connect. And as a leader, you telling your stories can help people learn.
where you are and why you are the way you are and what sort of, how you process things and all of that. so having more exposure to lots of different stories is such a good idea. So what are your top, I would say formal books, podcasts, et cetera, resources, and then what are your top fiction books right now?
Okay So for for the nonfiction side of things I love Brene Brown for thinking about values work. We didn't go here Directly, but I think a lot of what you have to do as a leader is look at your own values. Try to align with them Yeah, Brene Brown is is a big proponent of that. You know a big thinker that space Building trust is a huge part of being a leader Francis Fry and Anne Morris are
two of the big thinkers in that space right now. Just Google Francis Fry's TED Talk, but they also wrote a book called Unleash, where a lot of that information is available. And then I'm gonna recommend Loretta Ross. So I'm late to this one, but I saw a talk that Loretta Ross did recently. wrote a book called Calling In, How to Make Change with Those You'd Rather Cancel.
yeah, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1 (44:16.27)
Yeah, and I want to read it badly because I think planning ahead for what to do when you see the norms of an equitable, healthy workplace get violated helps you with courage, which is a big area of development for me personally right now. So I think that's, that's something I want to dig into. Fiction on my list. Um, well, actually I'll talk about things that have been influential in my life as an example here. Yeah. Um, I'm potak.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (44:45.902)
Ursula Le Guin, James Baldwin, Shusaku Endo, Robin Wall Kimura, that's not fiction, but if there's anybody left out there. her. Rating Sweetgrass. So those are all stories I exposed myself to at various points in my life that really changed how I thought and understood other people. On my list right now, Ada Lamone, the poet, Ocean Vuong, Zora Neale Hurston, who I am ashamed to admit that I've never read. So I need to...
Yeah, I know. Reading sweetgrass.
Speaker 1 (45:15.672)
do some remedial work for myself there.
Be happy. It's been a while, but we read that. We read Zora Neale Hurston in high school. Somehow, I'm not sure.
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Those are great. Okay. I will grab links from you and we will put links there if you all want to take a look at what those are. I will say for the Brene Brown values work, Dare to Lead, her book is the one that has the most on values and all of the values exercises. There's a really awesome values exercise in that book that you can do with yourself. You can do with your team where you figure out what your two core values are and what those behaviors are that you show up with when you are
both aligned with those values or when those values are being challenged. And I do it with my clients. I've done it. It was really game-changing for me. So it's a simple, simple exercise, but I definitely, I concur on that one. I concur on all of these. Simple, but not easy. I love it. Okay. So Ryan, last question. Everybody gets this one. Tell me what kind of Ted talk you would give if you had to give one that was not about your work.
Speaker 1 (46:27.778)
okay. So I love making things. I am a hobbyist, woodworker, knitter, sewer, cooking and gardening. I like knowing how things are made. so I, I, to anyone who will listen, we'll talk at length about how important it is to make and repair things in our physical world around us, because it helps us feel a sense of agency over our surroundings. helps us reduce waste.
to understand like the effort that goes into making something. we're alienated from that in a lot of ways. And, we, we just kind of buy the things that we need and there they are, they exist. And we don't think a lot sometimes about how they're put together and what it takes to maintain them. So, and to me, that's part of why like adaptive technology is so cool because it gives somebody physical agency in their, in their world where they might not have had it before. So,
I think everyone should make stuff in some capacity, whether that's art, music, food, physical, everyday use objects, whatever it is. I think it's super, super important, especially maybe for those of us who live our work lives in the digital space.
I love that. What are some things you've made or fixed recently that you're really proud of?
I started carving spoons, which is something I tried to do years ago and I never really could make work for myself. Turns out it was a type of wood I was using. But it's like a two or three hour thing. You can make a spoon from a tree branch and that's a fun little gift for somebody. I love that. That's been my recent thing. I've also been sewing bags and things, trying to learn how to sew. That's a new one. It's hard. Sewing is hard, Ellen.
Speaker 2 (48:14.21)
Yeah. It's really hard.
Very different than knitting.
Yeah, knitting is like meditative. Once you get past the learning curve, it's just repetitive. But sewing is like, wow, OK, so clothes are hard to make,
Yeah, no, can't do it. Thank God for my mom who also makes sure my plants don't die, but she's a good sewer. I'm like, can you make my child a costume?
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We need those people in our lives.
Speaker 2 (48:39.95)
I was thinking of the wooden spoons. I love to watch alone. I don't know if you've ever watched that. It's the survivalists who are like trying to make it in, it's like on Nat Geo, but they all carve wooden spoons because they can only bring 10 items with them to whatever remote location they're going. And they have these like beautiful wooden spoons that they're eating. So you define there. At least you could make a spoon. I don't know if you'd survive, but you can make a
I don't know if I'd do anything else right, but I could make a spoon, yeah.
Well, Ryan, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
LinkedIn is the best place. I'm easy to find there happy to chat with anyone who reaches out If you're trying to do some of this stuff for yourself or trying to find recommendations happy to think that through
That's awesome. Thank you. right. Well, we'll put Ryan's LinkedIn in the show notes as well. And thanks, everyone, for listening. And we will see you soon.
Ryan Stadt is a facilitator, coach, and talent development leader with a decade of experience in learning and development, technology, and coaching. He trained at the Hudson Institute of Coaching and currently holds an Associate Certified Coach credential from the International Coaching Federation. In his role as a talent development leader at a 4000-employee education company he has designed and delivered highly rated programs for aspiring leaders, new and tenured managers, and high potential senior leaders, along with building an internal coaching practice focused on directors and VPs. Helping individuals and teams make lasting change is the most rewarding part of his work. Ryan lives in Frederick, Maryland with his wife, daughter, and two cats, and is a passionate woodworker, knitter, sewist, and hiker.
