Episode 2: The Future of Leadership is Trauma-Informed
Emotions, Boundaries, and the Workplaces We Deserve
A real conversation about why leading well means understanding how trauma shows up—and how not to make it worse.
Summary
In this episode, Ellen Whitlock Baker and Dr. Kyle Elliott delve into the complexities of trauma in the workplace, discussing how trauma manifests, the importance of trauma-informed coaching, and practical strategies for leaders to support their teams. They explore the nuances of emotional expression, the challenges of discussing feelings in professional settings, and the need for a culture that honors individual experiences with trauma. The conversation emphasizes the significance of listening, understanding, and creating safe spaces for open dialogue about mental health and emotional well-being in the workplace. In this conversation, Kyle and Ellen explore the concept of the 'window of tolerance' and its significance in managing stress and trauma responses. They discuss practical techniques for staying within this window, such as breathing exercises and grounding techniques. The conversation also delves into the importance of creating a supportive work environment, addressing trauma in the workplace, and learning from feedback. Additionally, they provide insights on identifying red flags during job interviews and preparing for future job opportunities by networking and planting seeds for career growth.
Takeaways
Trauma shows up at work—even if no one’s talking about it.
Trauma isn’t just about what happens outside of work. It can be caused—or triggered—by toxic workplace cultures, micromanagement, inequity, and chronic stress. Recognizing how trauma manifests in professional environments is essential for building psychologically safe teams.
Trauma-informed coaching isn’t therapy—it’s leadership with awareness.
Trauma-informed coaching means acknowledging that people carry pain with them and creating space for emotional safety without trying to “fix” them. It’s about asking better questions, building trust, and supporting growth without re-traumatizing someone.
Leaders who listen create healthier, more resilient workplaces.
One of the most powerful things a manager or coach can do is listen without rushing to fix or defend. Deep listening—paired with consent and open-ended questions—helps teams feel seen, valued, and supported.
The “window of tolerance” helps leaders respond, not react.
Understanding your own (and others’) window of tolerance—the emotional range where people function best—can reduce stress, conflict, and burnout at work. Grounding techniques like breathwork and mindful pauses help keep communication productive even in tense moments.
Not everyone processes trauma the same way—and that matters.
Trauma responses are deeply individual. Creating an emotionally intelligent workplace means respecting different thresholds, communication styles, and coping strategies, especially across lines of race, gender, and lived experience.
Notable Quotes
"You can't shame your way into change."
—Dr. Kyle Elliott
"It was sort of a revelation to me to realize it was the workplace—and not me."
—Ellen Whitlock Baker
"Leadership without emotional awareness isn’t leadership—it’s just control."
—Dr. Kyle Elliott
"Trauma shows up at work—and most workplaces have no idea what to do with it."
—Ellen Whitlock Baker
"If you're a manager, you likely have employees who are going through trauma. Whether you know it or not."
—Dr. Kyle Elliott
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Trauma in the Workplace
01:29 Understanding Trauma and Its Impact
03:45 Defining Trauma in Context
05:27 The Role of Trauma-Informed Coaching
07:34 Practical Approaches for Leaders
09:48 Creating a Culture of Openness
12:59 Navigating Conversations About Feelings
15:00 The Challenge of Emotional Expression
17:50 Calculating Risks in Speaking Up
19:51 Setting Boundaries in the Workplace
21:44 Understanding the Window of Tolerance
24:10 Managing Activation and Stress Responses
26:45 Creating a Supportive Work Environment
27:44 Addressing Trauma in the Workplace
30:47 Learning from Feedback and Growth
32:34 Identifying Red Flags in Job Interviews
35:42 Preparing for Future Job Opportunities
Keywords: trauma, workplace, coaching, emotional intelligence, mental health, trauma-informed care, leadership, communication, employee support, workplace culture, window of tolerance, trauma responses, workplace stress, emotional management, job interviews, feedback, career preparation, mental health, self-care, support systems
Links:
Full Transcript
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01)
Hello everyone, it's so great to be here today and I am thrilled to welcome my friend Dr. Kyle Elliott to the Hard at Work podcast. Welcome, Kyle.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (00:12)
I'm excited to be here, thank you so much for having me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:15)
Thank you for being here. I'm thrilled to have Kyle here, in particular to learn from him about how trauma shows up in the workplace and how our workplaces aren't that good and maybe even actually terrible at knowing how to support people who've experienced trauma, as well as how not to be a workplace that causes trauma. And Kyle is a trauma-informed coach, which I don't know a lot about, so I'm really excited to learn more today.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (00:42)
I'm excited to share. think it's an important topic. It's more relevant than ever. So I think it's so timely that we're discussing this.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:46)
Yeah. Well, first, why don't we start off the typical question, but tell us a little bit about you and how you came to be this amazing coach.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (00:59)
Yes, as you shared, I'm a trauma-informed coach. Most often I help people find jobs. Usually they're in some sort of transition trying to figure out what's next for them. They often have 10, 20, 30 years of experience and they're like, I don't want to be doing what I'm doing anymore, but I also have children or a mortgage or student loans, so they can't just start over. So I typically work with them to figure out what's next. And then nearly all of us have experienced trauma. So usually people aren't coming to me saying, I want help navigating this trauma.
But instead it's coming up through our work. So several years ago, I pursued a certification in trauma informed coaching. I'm doing another one now. So often people seek me out because they've had some trauma in their work or their life or both and they want support and understanding how that's impacting them at work and their job search.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:48)
What led you to go after this particular brand of coaching?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (01:53)
Part of it was my own experiences with trauma in the workplace. I a few less than ideal, I'll call them experiences at work. One truly traumatic experience where like, I would call it catfished. I left my amazing job in Seattle, working for a mental health nonprofit, drove to California for this job in Silicon Valley, and it was just not what I expected. Super different and within
eight weeks I was at another organization and then another kind of long-term traumatic workplace. So was really difficult. In realizing I wish I had more tools and resources to be able to support me through that and realizing, gosh, if I had someone I could talk to and help me manage and navigate that, it would have been so helpful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:34)
Mm-hmm.
For sure, and it's something I think we're very scared to talk about at work because we don't know how.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (02:49)
Yeah, we don't know how. And then oftentimes when I talk to people, like, is this really trauma? Maybe someone else has had a bigger trauma. And then there's this kind of lack of understanding, lack of vocabulary around it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Well, good. We'll get into some of that today. I'm so glad you will be able to tell us. But first, we're talking about trauma a lot. We're obviously going to talk about it a lot in this episode. Can you define trauma in the context that we're talking about it?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (03:16)
Yes, so trauma can look different for everyone. It can be a single instance, maybe an assault or something of that nature, or it can be ongoing. One trauma that people experienced recently was the COVID-19 pandemic. So that's an example of a trauma. It can be mental, emotional, physical. What's important is not everyone's going to respond the same. So two people can go through the exact same experience, maybe a difficult boss, maybe the pandemic, maybe a shooting.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (03:45)
and then they might respond completely different. But typically when we think of a trauma, we're thinking of a distressful or difficult situation and we're having a difficult time coping with it. So for some people, the COVID-19 pandemic was really traumatic. They had a difficult time coping. Other people, it wasn't. They didn't have a difficult time coping. It wasn't as challenging. So the level of trauma or even whether someone classifies it as a trauma for themselves is going to be dependent on their ability to cope with it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:55)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. It's such a good reminder that we all are different in how we process things. And I think a lot at work, we expect everybody to be on the same spectrum emotionally. And I really appreciate the fact that we can start talking about this. So it reminds, if you're a leader and you're listening, that your staff is not all the same. in fact, you aren't either. So I appreciate that because it really does depend on your life experience, right, of how you react to trauma.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (04:45)
Yeah, and I think in the work context, we often think about trauma at work, but just because you're in the workplace doesn't mean those traumas that happen outside of work aren't going to come into work. So maybe you're going through a divorce, maybe you had a loss, maybe there was something else that happened outside of work that's going to come into work. We don't just kind of come into work and then forget outside of work. All of this blends together. So to realize almost every person is going to go through one or more traumatic events whether it's one time or ongoing in their life. So if you're a manager, you likely have employees who are going through traumas or who have went through traumas before. So this is an important topic for any manager or just any human to know that the people around you are dealing with trauma.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:27)
Mm-hmm
So how would you describe trauma-informed coaching?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (05:35)
A lot of people think it's therapy. So we're coming in and we're talking about all of this trauma. I don't think of it that way. I think of it instead as we're honoring acknowledging the trauma. We're saying, here's the trauma, let's honor it and let's acknowledge it. How can we manage any feelings or emotions that come up? But we're not processing it. My job isn't to say, okay, is this because of your mother or whatever it is, like us going deep in the past and figuring out why it's all there. That's a therapist.
Instead, it's almost setting it aside sometimes and saying, here's the trauma. Let's set it aside. Be mindful it's here. Are there emotions or feelings that come up? But my job isn't to kind of dig into the past there. I like clarifying though, it doesn't mean we can't go in the past. Oftentimes one distinction I hear is therapy is the past, coaching is the future. I disagree with that. One of my favorite kind of coaching questions is what's worked in the past for you? What's been helpful in the past?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:20)
Mm-hmm. I agree. Yeah, I agree with you.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (06:29)
Where is this pattern repeated in the past? So you can definitely look in the past when doing trauma-informed care, but I like calling it trauma-informed care for that reason. We're informed of your traumas, we're aware of them, but we're not doing trauma coaching. We're not coaching you around your trauma. That's what a therapist might be doing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we talked about in my coaching program that there's a Venn diagram between coaching and therapy. There's a little bit in the middle where we cross over. for sure, ask about, I always ask new clients about life experiences that I might need to know about that, you know, because every, we're affected by so many things. So that's really awesome. When you think about trauma-informed coaching, you think about talking about trauma, if you aren't certified, if you haven't had any classes in coaching, if you're a leader who may or may not have had any management training at all, what are some ways that you can start to get familiar with thinking about other people's trauma and handling it respectfully in the workplace?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (07:15)
Mm-hmm.
I love a good open-ended question. So those questions that can't be answered with a yes or no, but a what, a how, a when. There's also motivational interviewing--it's OARS, it's an abbreviation. You can ask open-ended question. You can affirm someone. You can reflect back. You can summarize. If you Google OARS, there's a lot of great questions there. But a lot of my managers will just write that down when they're talking to someone and saying, is there an open-ended question I can ask here?
Might I affirm someone? Can I reflect something back to them? Can I summarize what they've said? But it's really just sitting and being present with that person. And it's less about the exact question you ask or the thing you say and really just being present and listening. I remember one of my coaching sessions, a client's like, this is so amazing, you're so good. And I had literally asked three questions the entire conversation. I think one of them was like, what else? Oftentimes it's not about these most amazing questions, even though a good question can be helpful. It's often just being present and listening to them can be powerful. And asking permission along the way. Is it okay if we talk about this? How are you feeling right now as we address this? Is this an appropriate topic? And just checking in with them as well.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's so important. We forget that.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (08:53)
Yeah, and just checking in, making sure they feel comfortable. I'm not a huge fan of the word safe, because I don't think any space is 100 % safe, but are they comfortable as you're doing this, and just checking in and providing that. And then one acronym, this is more from sales, wait, why am I talking? If you're a manager asking yourself, why am I talking here? Can I just listen and allow this person's space to talk, be heard, be seen, and for me to be present with?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:00)
Right.
Mm, it's so important. That acronym definitely applies to me in many situations. for me, was the coaching program and having to practice. And the point of coaching is not to talk over someone or explain to them anything. It's really to listen and be present. And it really made a difference in my whole life. I think most people, we don't necessarily practice that. And also everybody's different in how they feel comfortable about having conversations about hard topics, emotional topics. And so if you're someone like that, if the thought of talking to a team member or a coworker or a family member and sort of having them maybe open up a little bit about something that feels traumatic to them, and all that makes you want to do is run away and hide under a table. So great to ask these open-ended questions. What are some other like practices that you might be able to do to get yourself more in the habit?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (10:21)
I think it might be creating a habit, maybe writing yourself a note, am I going to ask questions? I think part of that act of listening is sitting there and listening to hear, not to respond, almost opening a space in yourself to, I'm just going to hear this and almost have it come into you and might even go through you instead of I need to respond, just letting it come in and having that almost open or empty space to hear that can be really helpful. I think part of it is modeling as well. I think if we want someone to talk about themselves, we have to talk
Dr. Kyle Elliott (10:50)
about ourselves as well. And in a space that maybe feels comfortable, or I've heard, I did a diversity training, comfortable plus one, like here's where I'm comfortable and then can I go a little bit beyond that and not to a place where it's so uncomfortable. I shut down, but just a little bit beyond that. And I think it's practice, but something like my family, we would sit down at dinner and talk about our feelings and what we did. If that's not something you're used to, then it's gonna be baby steps, maybe just starting with going around.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (11:20)
table at a staff meeting and saying, okay, what's one feeling word that's coming up or having an emotional wheel and kind of starting slow as well and stuff, feeling like we have to dive in and I'm going to ask you about your trauma. Maybe taking baby steps instead.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:25)
Mm-hmm. That's so interesting. That makes me think I also sat around a table with my parents every night for dinner, and we talked about our feelings. And so it's easy for me to do that with other people. I don't like talking about my own as much, but I'm happy to ask other people questions, which is funny. So yeah, it's totally different depending on the environment you're in.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (12:00)
Yeah, people are just kind of different levels. And my partner, I know he's fine with me sharing this, like, my mom in the morning will ask, how did you sleep? And to me, that's a very simple, basic question. For him, that's a loaded question. That's a lot. That's feelings. So to realize people have different backgrounds and upbringings and our level of comfort is different. For him, that's a big question, the talking about feelings and emotions. So to realize we have different levels of comfort and maybe even asking people, what do you like talking about? What's the best way to talk about feeling?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:20)
So wow.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (12:29)
and to realize it's going to look different. Maybe someone wants to write it. I had an amazing boss, actually, when I worked at UW. Part of our one-on-ones would be sending a check-in note beforehand and kind of updating as well. So I love that. So as an introvert, it was helpful to do that. And then she would send questions back as well. So we had our in-person one-on-one, but there was also this asynchronous one-on-one. Those are a great way to reflect as well. So finding those methods that work for people.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:30)
Mm-hmm.
That's smart.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (12:59)
to be able to share and open up.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:59)
Yeah.
So it's about honoring that people have been through trauma and it might be showing up in certain ways, but it's also really what we're talking about is how to work with people who are different, which is everybody. yeah, and I don't know. I mean, you've done a lot of work in tech and obviously I come from higher ed, which you've had some experience in too. I don't see us being very good at that in that sector because everyone is on equal footing.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (13:11)
Yeah, everyone, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:27)
instead of equality, know, and, or equity really. So do you see that in the tech sector as well? How do you, how, does it go talking about feelings in the tech sector?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (13:39)
They don't. That's a generalization. But oftentimes it's something they don't talk about. lot of it's, where's the data? Let's make data-driven decisions. And when clients do start talking about it, when people start talking about feelings, it can be really helpful. And it's just something people aren't used to. It's just very uncomfortable for people. And it's like being asked, like, how did you sleep last night? For me, I was very comfortable, normal. For other people, it's not. So it just takes practice and getting used to it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:02)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (14:07)
And then people quickly realize, this is actually helpful because this is what's really holding us back. We're not talking about feelings. Maybe we're avoiding something. It can be super helpful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:19)
Have you had experience either yourself or with some of the folks you're coaching about being maybe judged for wanting to talk about feelings or being open to talk about feelings or trauma or something a little different than KPIs at work?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (14:34)
Yeah, sometimes people are labeled, especially based on their identity or background, as too emotional, too reactive. So it's this balance as well in finding out, okay, let me test the waters and see how people respond. And knowing that there might be some judgment as well in deciding how much do I want to share? Do I feel comfortable sharing this? How comfortable do I feel? How is this impacting my safety? It's a balance, the balancing act.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (15:01)
and then finding that right workplace as well. And maybe this isn't a workplace I want to be at if I can't share my feelings and emotions that are important to me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:10)
That's a big realization, I think.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (15:13)
Yeah, to say, like this place, I don't feel comfortable here. I can't talk about the things that are important to me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:17)
Yeah.
And the realization that you are actually, you're okay wanting to do that. We're often made to feel like we're doing something wrong if we want to talk about feelings. Like you said, too emotional, too whatever. And I know I spent a lot of years trying to fix myself to be, fix myself to be less emotional, but that's just, I just am that person. And it's...
Dr. Kyle Elliott (15:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:45)
It was sort of a revelation to me to realize it was the workplace and not me.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (15:49)
I remember getting that feedback once that I was too emotional. And I'm like, I feel like this is a social justice issue. I should be emotional. I should care. Like this is a big deal. We're impacting people's lives. It's normal to be emotional. And then I realized maybe this isn't the place for me. Maybe this isn't where I want to be if me caring and getting activated about something socially justice is perceived as emotional and people are just sitting here calm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:56)
you
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (16:19)
when there is this inequity and lack of fairness for this group that's being oppressed.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's where I definitely on this podcast want to explore, particularly those of us who are white, bear some responsibility to use that privilege in the workplace. Whether we're women or anything, we're still white. And so what I've also experienced is a
Dr. Kyle Elliott (16:43)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:49)
having bosses be frustrated with me for speaking up about things because it made it harder for them. And so like, if you know, what would you say to someone who was in that space? Who's like, I really am trying to, I am passionate about this issue and I feel like it's good for me to say something about it. Cause we all kind of need to speak up when something is wrong, but then getting sort of.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (16:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:16)
frozen out by your boss for doing that or chastised even.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (17:20)
The phrase that comes to mind is calculated risk. I do this workshop on like weighing risk. And I think of calculated risk. And when I think of that as like the potential benefits outweigh the potential risk. And everyone's thought of like, here's the risks is gonna be different than their benefits. For me, like I had the privilege of like, if I get fired, have savings, I feel like I can get another job. Not everyone has that. Some people are like, I need this job, I can't speak up. For me, like some of the benefits are like, if I speak up,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:23)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (17:50)
Or people think I'm angry. It's just Kyle's angry or maybe a gay men are angry, but it's mostly just Kyle's angry. Um, so I had some of that privilege to be able to speak up and it was just Kyle speaking up, Kyle being angry. And it would often be in team meetings and people would ping me on Microsoft teams and be like, Kyle, can you say something? Cause they know if they speak up, it's going to be their entire group being kind of labeled this way. So I used my privilege to speak up and
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:03)
You're right.
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (18:18)
kind of the benefits or the potential benefits outweighed any potential risks in my mind. So I think people have to do that calculation for themselves and say, what are the risks? What are the benefits and which one is greater here?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:25)
Mm-hmm.
That's tough too, because it's hard. We live in a capitalist society, so we all need money and definitely health care. And I know that's what held me back for a long time of getting out of places where I didn't feel great. And it is so hard. So I feel like a lot of people are trapped. And it can be really hard to get out, even if you
Dr. Kyle Elliott (18:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:59)
think it's a good thing to do. You calculate the risk and you know, but if you lose your job, you don't have anything and right now it's a really hard time. So what are there like boundaries that you would set or maybe like a, I'm thinking of like a meter and like, okay, my emotions are here and I don't let them get any higher here because it is not comfortable in this workplace or something like that. Like how do you help yourself? Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (19:23)
Yeah, I think those boundaries can be helpful and I think that'll look different for everyone. Is
it, do I need to step away from this meeting if it's too much and set that boundary? And then there's going to be some benefits there and maybe some risks in figuring out what that looks like. Or I need to speak up in these meetings if someone says this or I need to step out of the meeting and really finding that for you. And I love that idea of a meter. often do something similar with people saying, here's what I want in a job and then here's my deal breaker. Here's my requirement.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (19:51)
and it can be a helpful spectrum. I often consider or have people consider having boxes. Like here's the true where I'm going to say no, and then here's where there's some wiggle room. And do that when you're in a space where you're not activated or triggered. So then when you do get triggered, you can kind of look back and say, here's where I was feeling more logical. That's what's helpful. Like if this happens, okay, maybe I don't need to speak up. But in these moments, I'm going to speak up. This is where I'm going to stay on my ground. And that can be really helpful to have some kind of clear.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:06)
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (20:21)
Guidelines for yourself as to where I speak up and where I let things slide because you have to choose kind of your battles
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:27)
You totally do. And the part about being activated is so important because I honestly, until like two years ago, didn't know how your rational brain shuts off, well, not shuts off, but gets a lot less rational when you're in a stress response. And my therapist told me that, and I was like, and she's like, that's why you don't act rationally when you are really upset. And again, I was like, I thought the problem was me, and it wasn't.
You know, how is that? And I can imagine too, trauma can be triggered really easily. And you and I can be sitting in the same room and somebody says something out loud and it might be awful for me and totally fine for you or vice versa based on lots of things. So what are some things that you think are good to do? Like it can be really tricky when you're in a workplace, like.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (21:01)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:19)
it feels awkward to leave the meeting, or if you're like me and my trauma, or sorry, my stress response is often crying, which you're never supposed to do in the workplace, but that's where it happens for me. And I don't agree with that, by the way, that you're never supposed to do it, but that's what we're told. Like, what could people do that feels, I guess, not safe, but comfortable, like that can help them not react when they're in that activated space?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (21:28)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I highly encourage people to look up the window of tolerance. Often people have a window of tolerance. For some people, it's really big. It takes a lot for them to move outside of it and not get activated. Other people, it's smaller. Sometimes that's because of trauma. It's easy to go beyond it. And when you're inside of that window of tolerance, it's more challenging for you to get activated. And then you might go beyond it and say, I'm feeling really activated. It's kind of like a volcano when you're outside of it. And they're like, this is a lot.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:50)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (22:13)
I'm really hyper aroused. I feel like I'm going to fight or hypo aroused. I'm kind of just flopping or I'm pulling away. There's six different trauma responses, but those are like the basic ones you might want to fight or you might want to kind of run away. Recognizing that can be helpful in saying, there ways for me to stay within that window of tolerance? Breathing is so powerful saying, I breathe? Can I recognize before I'm moving out of that window of tolerance?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:27)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (22:41)
And when you're in that state where you're not activated saying, okay, are there certain situations that tend to activate me? And is there something I can do before that moment? So if I know that when I'm driving, it activates me. For me, I get really stressed driving. I get annoyed that people aren't kind. So I need to breathe before I get in the car or as soon as I get in the car, let me take 90 seconds to breathe. And then when I'm merging on a freeway, can I breathe some more?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
You
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (23:09)
And then if I'm going into a meeting at work, I know I could activate, can I breathe a little bit before I go in? And then what other techniques are there where you know if you're going to go into a stressful situation, you can calm yourself. it putting your feet on the floor? Is that they're going to text some friends and maybe have a group chat going during it? What are those things where you can stay within your window of tolerance to kind of manage that? And then if you go beyond it, is there something you can do to kind of manage yourself when you are in that activated state?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:13)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. What are some things you can do when you're activated? Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (23:41)
I think breathing can be part of it. I think not
being alone, telling someone, hey, I'm in this activated state, can you breathe with me? Or can you help reassure me? Or I have a Stitch stuffed animal, I love playing with his hair, he has this little messy hair and then I'm like fixing it. This is a lot, I have a lot of Stitches. I have another one in the other room and his hair always gets messy, so I just fix his hair. I love brushing it off. If you're in public, you're gonna look funny, but I like physically brushing off my body.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:47)
Hmm
I think we can see him in your background right now.
interesting.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (24:10)
and think, we
have this negative energy, let me brush it off. If you have a friend or a family member, you can even tell them, hey, I have this negative activation, can you me brush it off? We live on State Street in Santa Barbara and we have a balcony, so my partner and I will go out there sometimes. I'm like, let's brush this off and get it out of our condo. We have to go outside, we have to get this out, or maybe if my partner has a bad day at work, I'm like, hey, let's go outside and get all this negative energy off.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:21)
I love that.
I love
that.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (24:39)
I love humor too. Can we add some humor here or something funny? Like if someone cuts me off, we always say, okay, maybe they have to go caca. Like they're going somewhere. Like that's why they cut us off. So can we add something to kind of be mindful? we're exiting that window of tolerance. Let's come back into it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:45)
You
I love that. I was at yoga yesterday and they were talking about the story of an ink pot that needed to be cleaned, but you couldn't pick the ink pot up and clean it like for a pen, you know? But what you did was pour clean water in and eventually all the ink came out and it became all clear. And I was like, wow, what a metaphor because similar to brushing it off, it's like we're filling ourselves with
Dr. Kyle Elliott (25:16)
Mmm!
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:25)
the clean water and getting rid of the black ink that is staining our souls or whatever it was doing. I, know, that brushing off, could totally do that in a meeting. I like that because that's something you could do when you can't leave the room, which I mean, you can always leave a room. And I want to give everyone permission. You can leave the room and please do. But if you're stuck, sometimes when you're in that freeze, your brain again is not working in the way that it would normally work. So
Dr. Kyle Elliott (25:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:53)
know, you're stuck. So I like that sort of brushing off. That's cool.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (25:57)
And you
can even involve other people at the beginning. I don't have a team anymore. I work for myself. But when I had a staff, we would start the beginning of our meetings with two minutes of just silence coming together. It was so helpful because a lot of I've managed a team of students, so they were coming from class a lot of times, so they're part-time jobs. So, okay, let's take two minutes and be mindful. My partner and I, we have a house meeting every week where we check in on all our tasks and we start with a meditation. So kind of finding those moments.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:07)
Mm-hmm.
love that.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (26:26)
to just
ground yourself can be really helpful. And when I meet with my own coach, he does seven deep breaths with me. So he says, okay, let's pause, let's breathe for seven breaths. my goodness, I cannot believe in that minute how quickly I'm able to just come back to myself and be calm. No matter what happened before, it's powerful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:45)
That's brilliant. I think about our days that are Zoom meeting after Zoom meeting after Zoom meeting or whatever, and you're just, we're not designed to do that. Yeah, I love that. That's really smart. So let's talk for a second about causing trauma in the workplace. So we don't always know if something we're doing is causing trauma, right? And what...
Dr. Kyle Elliott (26:51)
huh.
No.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:15)
What do we do if someone says, hey, this is really hurting me or bothering me? They probably won't use the word trauma. They might. But something you're doing as a leader, a coworker, has really triggered me or has made me feel awful. I know the first instinct is shame and then also trying to talk them out of it, which is not great. But what are some things you could do if that happened to you?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (27:26)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
I do not know the source of this acronym. I love a good acronym, but there's one called CLAIM when this happens. So you want to stay calm. You don't want to react super negatively, least externally to that person. You want to listen. So listen to what they're saying. Be open-minded. You want to apologize. The first thing you want to do is apologize and not apologize. I'm sorry you feel that way. You want to apologize for your own actions. And then there's this visual. I'll have to find it, but then...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:08)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (28:14)
There's inquire, and this is in parentheses. So only inquire if they give you permission, or you can ask for permission and say, is it okay if I ask some questions about this? This person may not in that moment want you to share a bunch, but you can ask for some permission or say, is it okay if at another time we talk about this? And then move forward. You don't want to sit on this and keep coming back to it over and over and over. And I think that's that shame you mentioned. Sitting in that shame isn't gonna fix it. You can't shame your way out of change.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:19)
Hmm
Mmm.
Mm-mm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (28:43)
So I think what's important, this claim can be really powerful when you're called out or you're called in for doing something. And then if it happens again, you just continue to repeat this. Okay, stay calm, listen to they're saying, apologize, and again, move forward. And I think of it like an upward spiral each time, hopefully you're improving and getting better. I think oftentimes we assume like the first time you get feedback, you're going to be perfect. But instead our job is to keep learning.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:54)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. I love that.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (29:11)
unlearning, relearning, and getting better.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:15)
It is, and it goes back to everyone is different. you're not going to, if you think you're a great manager of a particular team and everything's clicking along, you add one new person or you change over your team or you go to a different place and you might not click at all. And it just depends on the people. And so what you're saying, you've talked about asking open-ended questions and sort of.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (29:34)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:40)
being open to talking about trauma if they bring it up. And then here, you receive criticism not as you are bad, but as, I have something to learn. And we are so inclined to have people like us and to do things perfectly. Those are all those white, what are they called? The white.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (29:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:04)
perfectionist tendencies that are harmful to other people, but we think we're doing the right thing. So that is something I think that keeps people from continuing to try to change because if they are told once, hey, that hurt or please don't say that to me again or whatever it is, then they just clam up and like go away.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (30:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think going back to your kind trauma responses and saying, maybe this is triggering something for me. Let me ground myself. Let me breathe. Let me tap into my community. And then recognizing you're activated is really important. And then maybe getting your own support and that person telling you doesn't need to be that support. can look into resources beyond them to learn.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:47)
Yes.
That's the other thing is it's very tempting to ask somebody to explain it all to you. And it really is not their job to do that at all. Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (30:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's why I love that I being in parentheses. It's like,
you can inquire a little bit if they're open and give you permission, but really it's not their job. mean, you've already caused them trauma. It's not their job. It could actually be more traumatizing for them to tell you.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:12)
Yeah,
which we did a lot in the racial reckoning with especially black women who did a lot of work for those of us who didn't do it on our own. So I like that a lot. And everything is Googleable and findoutable. So I think there's nothing that if somebody wants to share, that's fabulous because you get a personal take, but they do not need to. So I think that's important.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (31:28)
Yes. Yep.
Yeah, there's enough books out there. Buy someone's book and read on it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:40)
There are.
I have 87 million of them behind me. So what about, and you think about this too as you're talking to the clients you're working with to get jobs. What are those red flags? If you're looking for a new job, what should we avoid? Like if we see in a workplace that might give indication that it's either got some drama going on or they wouldn't be able to talk about your emotions or it's just not the right place.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (31:44)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah.
I like to remind people that interviewers, that hiring managers, recruiters, they're all on their best behavior. So if something comes up during this, like remember they're on their best behavior throughout this. So I would proceed with caution. I think what's important too is recognize what people don't say. If they don't bring something up that can be a red flag. That's something I missed when I was talking about that employer earlier when I moved from Seattle down to Silicon Valley.
I realized I only met my hiring manager and then their boss, the CEO. And this was a big role I was going for, a senior manager role, leading all events for this huge foundation. And I was like, looking back, there should have been a red flag. That was the only two people I met for this big role where I was doing cross-functional work, raising lots of money. That should have been a red flag. I didn't come into the office. I didn't meet anyone else. So that can be really helpful. Like, why did I not meet anyone else even though this role was supposed to be interacting with
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:40)
Uhhh
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (33:03)
all these people and I was just so excited. It just kind of went past me. Turnover rates as well. If people keep turning over, that can be indicative of something. Why do people keep turning over? If it's one or two, it could just be maybe there was something that happened, maybe a personality difference. But if you keep seeing people turn over, that can be a red flag. And then I love doing some backdoor research. People during the interview process, they're going to introduce you to the people they want to.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:07)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (33:32)
But I reach out to people they don't introduce you to. If you're going to be interacting with finance a bunch or marketing or sales, go reach out to them on your own via LinkedIn or former employees. That's my favorite. Say, hey, I see you used to work here you don't anymore. What was it like working there? People can give you a lot of insights. I've done that for myself when I was job searching and now for clients. And often people will say, yeah, I'd love to chat or run, run, run. And that can be super helpful reaching out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:49)
Love that.
Yeah.
I never thought of doing that on LinkedIn. I've always sort of gone with people I know who have worked for X, Y, or Z plays, but you can reach out to anyone on LinkedIn. They're usually happy to chat.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (34:13)
That's my favorite thing about LinkedIn. People are a clicker to a way, so happy to chat. I've had people say, I'll chatter. give me your client's name. I'll take them on a tour. Like people are so happy, willing to chat. And it just takes asking because everyone online says to network and then people are like, that doesn't work. But no one actually does it or very few people do it. And I talked to hiring managers and recruiters and they're like, actually not a lot of people reach out. So when they do, I respond.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:23)
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I'm going to ask you something that's slightly off topic of what we were talking about, but you are so good at it. And it is such a tough time right now. We're filming this in April and the stock market's plummeting and we just don't know what jobs are going to be like. And we can probably expect a rough job market. What are some things people could do now to prepare for the fact that they might need to find a new job because they'll get laid off or?
you know, what's it's going to look like? I know you don't know for sure, but what would you do?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (35:14)
My favorite analogy is to kind of think of it like gardening. Like if you want some vegetables later, you have to plant seeds before you need them. So I would start planting seeds now and not only plant one type of seed. So don't just plant one seed and hope it grows. A lot of my clients, I literally encourage them to get like a little jar and seeds or rocks or pebbles, something visual, and start planting seeds. So I'm gonna reach out to this person I used to work with.
I'm going to go find companies I'm interested in and then set a goal. Okay, maybe one person a day or two people a week I'm going to reach out to and let them know, hey, I'm just casually looking. Here's the types of roles I'm interested in. And then go back and water those seeds. Hey, it's been a month since we chatted. Just wanted to let you know. I'm just still exploring casually. Here's what I'm looking for. So then later on, when you need a job or if you're looking, you already have all these seeds you've planted and then you can start pruning it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:11)
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (36:11)
are
cultivating it. So that's what I would suggest is do the work now when you don't need the garden. So then it's three, six months, a year later, and you already have all these seeds planted and maybe some of them are already sprouting. I find a lot of people reach out to me and they're like, I lost my job. I don't have a resume. I don't have a LinkedIn. I have no idea what I want for a living. I haven't interviewed since 1998. So I would start now and just slowly work on it 20 minutes a week.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:24)
I love that.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (36:39)
40 minutes a week, like just little chunks and it's a lot easier.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:43)
I love that. I love the actually putting the seed in the jar. think that's visual is so important.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (36:47)
And it adds up.
It adds up. One person a week's 52 a year. You can take two weeks off. 50 a year or two people is 100 and it adds up so quick. I have to find, my clipboard's in another room. I do the same thing for my own business networking. My goal this year is 365 people. And it sounds like a lot, but it's like five minutes a day I'm gonna reach out to people and it just adds up really quickly as you plant those seeds.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:53)
Yeah
It does. It's those little things that add up. I often, a lot of my clients are, hey, I've done x, y, or z profession for 20 years. I hate it now. But I have no idea what else to do. Particularly, think those of us who were in fundraising or higher education stuff, because it's not, it's translatable for sure. But we don't even know where to look for jobs in the private sector, which you and I talked about a long time ago.
And my advice is the same. It's, you know, okay, make a list of the people you know in places that you're interested in or who knows somebody who works at that company that you're interested in that can introduce you. And those coffees that they do are often really clarifying, not even necessarily to get them their next job, but even in talking about it, they realize, ooh, I don't wanna do that, or, hmm, this is more interesting to me than I thought.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (38:06)
Yeah, and you can use LinkedIn. I would go reach out to 20 people who used to be in fundraising, see where they are now. LinkedIn search features are powerful. To do that, go find people who used to work where you work and see what they do now. Often clients will tell me, what can I do after fundraising as an example? said, I have ideas, but how about you go look, see what people did, and that can give you some data points. What I love is it's not just our imagination. It's actually telling us, here's what
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:12)
Ooh.
That's a great idea.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (38:35)
real people did before, what jobs they got in its market research.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:40)
Yeah, that's so smart. People don't use LinkedIn as they should, I think. Yeah, it really is. I found it really helpful too. Even with the algorithm that's kind of broken right now, you can still use the search function and reach out to people. my gosh, Kyle, this has been so awesome. You have shared so much good information. Thank you very much. Where can people find you and anything else you want to share before we get to the final question, which is a more fun one.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (38:44)
They don't! It's my favorite tool. so helpful.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes,
my website, caffeinatedkyle.com, and then I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn, which is Kyle Elliott with two L's and two T's.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:17)
And you have a free resource, don't you, for stress at work?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (39:21)
Yes, I do.
Yes. So if you are stressed at work, I created a resource of I think 30 plus different ways to manage your stress. And there's a lot of different ways. Think of it like a buffet. Whether there's your mind, your body, your heart, different ways to practice self care. So the link will be in the show notes and you can tap into that when you're feeling a little stressed. When you move outside that window of tolerance, those tools can help you move back into it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:45)
Hmm,
I'm taking away window of tolerance today. A lot of things, but that's a really good one. I can't wait to look at it. All right, so now for the fun. I love to just make sure everybody knows everybody has a personality here. If you had to give a TED Talk on something completely unrelated to your work, what would it be?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (39:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I love logistics. think something I love, like when I go to Starbucks, what's so interesting to me is to think of the coffee I'm getting and like how many people went into making this cup of coffee and getting it here. The branding, the marketing, the person in finance, sales, like the people who roasted it. It's so fascinating. Or we go to Disneyland a lot. We're passholders to Disneyland, my partner and I.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (40:29)
We moved from the Bay Area down to Santa Barbara and one of the main reasons was to be closer to Disneyland. Like the parade, there's so much that goes into that, the people that have to put out the rope and the logistics part. Like think it's so fascinating these huge logistics. And I love that. I could talk about it all day, just the amount of logistics that go into these things that just people don't think of for these large scale companies and events. mean, part of it's the work I do with clients, but I just...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:40)
Hmm
of that.
It's huge.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (40:59)
Kind of fascinating.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:00)
Yeah, and as someone who did events, not anything that fancy, but it is a lot. You sit at a dinner and there's 87 people who made the fact that you're having chicken on your plate available to you. So yeah, that's so interesting. I thought you were gonna say Disney. You would do a whole talk on Disney. You could.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (41:12)
Yeah.
Yes, it's wild. Yeah. I think I Disney too. do, Disneyland I could talk about. I'm not
good with history though. I'm not good with fat like that. Yeah. Yes, I love that. I'm so detailed with that. So I would love to talk about that too.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:28)
No, but if you like, if someone needs to know how to go through Disneyland, Kyle's got all the tips.
Okay. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. Can't wait for people to find more about you online and we will talk to you soon.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (41:55)
Of course, thank you for having me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:20)
Yay!
Dr. Kyle Elliott (42:21)
Thanks.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (he/him/his) is the founder and tech career coach behind CaffeinatedKyle.com. His trauma-informed career coaching has empowered senior managers and executives to land jobs at top tech companies like Meta, Amazon, Google, and many more. When he’s not helping Silicon Valley’s top talent find jobs they truly love, you will likely catch him at Starbucks or Disneyland.
