Episode 16: Empathy Isn’t Optional: Jaime Hunt on Managing with Humanity
From toxic norms to turtle love, Jaime Hunt shares why empathy is a leadership strategy—and how it can change the way we work.
What if accountability didn’t have to feel like punishment? A powerful take on managing humans, not machines.
Summary
In this conversation, Ellen Whitlock Baker and Jaime Hunt explore the unique challenges of marketing and leadership in higher education. They discuss the importance of empathy in leadership, the lack of training for leaders in higher ed, and the need for integrated marketing strategies. Jaime shares insights from her experience in consulting and teaching, emphasizing the value of coaching and professional development for leaders. The discussion also covers practical exercises for building empathy and addressing employee performance issues, highlighting the importance of understanding individual circumstances in the workplace. They discuss the pressures that lead to burnout and the importance of finding support systems, whether through coaching or mentorship.
📕 Buy Jaime’s book, Heart Over Hype, here!
Takeaways
Empathy in leadership isn’t soft—it’s strategic. Leaders who actually understand their people see better results, period. You don’t have to be a therapist, but you do need to give a damn.
Workplaces don’t train managers well—and we’re paying for it. People get promoted for being great at their old job, not their leadership skills. Coaching and mentorship should be the norm, not a luxury.
Empathy ≠ excuse-making. You can hold people accountable and be kind. Asking, “What does support look like from me?” can radically shift tough conversations.
Boundaries make better leaders. From lunch breaks to post-9pm calls, setting clear limits models the kind of culture that actually retains people.
If your workplace lacks empathy, you’re not broken—it is. You can’t fix your boss, but you can build support outside your chain of command and protect your own peace.
Notable Quotes
“If you just want robots, you shouldn’t be leading people. You should be leading robots—and that’s a totally different job.” — Jaime Hunt
“Empathy doesn’t mean avoiding accountability. It means addressing issues with humanity.” — Jaime Hunt
“You’re not broken. The system is.” — Ellen Whitlock Baker
“The kindest thing you can do as a leader is to address the problem directly—and ask, ‘What does support look like from me?’” — Ellen Whitlock Baker
“You can't change someone else, but you can decide to protect your peace and set the boundary.” — Jaime Hunt
Chapters
00:00 – Meet Jaime Hunt
01:00 – From VP to Consultant: Jaime’s Career Pivot
03:30 – What Makes Higher Ed Marketing So Different
06:00 – Why We’re Failing to Train Leaders
10:00 – The Case for Coaching in the Public Sector
13:30 – How to Lead with Empathy (Even During Conflict)
18:00 – “Just Do Your Job” Leadership Isn’t It
21:00 – Empathy and Accountability Can Coexist
26:00 – Real Stories: When Support Made the Difference
30:00 – What to Do If Your Boss Lacks Empathy
34:30 – Why Jaime Left Higher Ed (and What She Sees Now)
39:00 – Budget Cuts, Burnout, and the Broken Cycle
44:30 – Advice for Trapped Workers Who Can’t Just Quit
46:00 – How to Set Boundaries Without Getting Fired
48:30 – Using AI to Practice Tough Conversations
50:30 – Jaime’s Surprise TED Talk Topic (Hint: 🐢)
Keywords: higher education, marketing, leadership, empathy, coaching, professional development, employee performance, management, crisis communication, integrated marketing, empathy, leadership, workplace culture, higher education, burnout, coaching, career transition, AI in leadership, mental health, support systems
Transcript
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01.582)
Hi everyone, I am so, so excited to introduce you to our amazing guest today. This is Jaime Hunt. Welcome, Jaime.
Jaime Hunt (00:10.467)
Thank you so much, I'm so happy to be here.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:12.812)
I'm so happy to have you, especially because I got to be on your podcast just a couple of weeks ago. So we got into some trouble there. We'll get into some trouble here.
Jaime Hunt (00:20.171)
I know, it was so much fun. I think we could have talked for hours.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:23.644)
For sure, higher ed gives us a certain bond. Well, to start, I would love if you could just share a little bit about yourself so people get to know you and then we can dig into the good stuff too.
Jaime Hunt (00:29.555)
Yeah, recovering from higher ed.
Jaime Hunt (00:43.457)
Yeah, so I have worked in higher ed for almost 21 years now. I was a higher ed vice president for the last 10 years of my career. And then before that, various from coordinator to director to director type positions. And before that, I was a print journalist for about five years. And right now, I have launched my own consulting firm, Solve Higher Ed, where I do a lot of consulting around brands, positioning, enrollment marketing, AI and crisis. And then I also teach at West Virginia University. I teach emerging media in the markets. That's like AI, the internet of things, virtual reality, all of that good stuff. And I teach higher ed marketing because they have an actual concentration at WVU in higher ed marketing and they're masters of integrated marketing program. So I'm really, yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:38.621)
that's interesting.
Jaime Hunt (01:40.237)
I'm really busy, but I'm loving it. I can work with a lot of different campuses and then not necessarily have to be embroiled in the politics of any one campus.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:53.452)
This is delightful. For those who may not be familiar with higher ed, what's different about higher ed marketing?
Jaime Hunt (02:01.367)
Yeah, so I think I was just on a call with someone earlier today talking about how higher ed really feels like it is a bunch of independent franchisees kind of doing their own thing across the campus. And I actually, my friend Jeff Schaefer, who was at UNC Greensboro, shared that analogy with me and I loved it. And one of the things that he or that we talked about today in our conversation was it's not even just like every college acts like an independent franchisee. It's like departments within colleges. And sometimes departments within departments act like independent franchisees. And so I think the idea of, you know, in a corporate world, you know, my friend had said, you have a lot more control over the four P's, right? Like you can have impact on pricing and on the product and, you know, promotion and place all of that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:41.111)
Yep.
Jaime Hunt (02:58.987)
And in higher ed, you really only have control over promotion. Unless you're at a really, really forward thinking school, you're not having control over the pricing and the product. And the place is set, right? The campus is where the campus is. So it's very different from, I think, selling computers or cars or fill in the blank for that reason.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:14.124)
Yeah. that's interesting. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:24.91)
Yeah. And it's interesting that you have experience with a degree in higher ed marketing, because some of what we want to talk about today is like, we don't get a lot of training in how to do our jobs in the public sector in general, think, but in higher ed. And so I think it's great that there's a bespoke degree. But what are the classes that you would say that are in that degree program that people are missing when they're starting in higher ed marketing or in higher ed marketing.
Jaime Hunt (03:59.553)
Yeah, I I think that in higher ed in general, we do a terrible job of training leaders. So we do a really, really bad job of preparing people for conflict resolution, preparing people for being leaders that have empathy, being transparent, being authentic, all of that. Of course, that's not necessarily something you get in the master's program. But some of the things that I think that the master's program does cover that isn't
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:05.838)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (04:27.223)
I think something that the average person sort of getting trained up in higher ed thinks about is that integration of the functions within a communication shop. I consistently throughout my career, all 21 years, most of my consulting, it's like even the marketing shops are really siloed. So it's like designs over here doing their own thing and content writing is over here and the news team's over here and everybody's doing their own thing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:35.842)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (04:56.365)
And so I think when you start to think about it in a more integrated way and in a way where you're aligning the work across those departments, I think that's when you start to see some really successful work happening at institutions. But it's hard, especially if the leaders aren't trained on how to integrate those functions together. If they're thinking, if they grew up in a silo, they think a silo is what needs to be.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:14.702)
Yeah.
Jaime Hunt (05:21.719)
And then they're not thinking about how to bust that silo. Like we really don't train people on how to bust silos.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:27.224)
Mm-mm, we don't. And we were talking the other day about I never had a management training class. I had a master's degree and had some courses on public sector management, which is a very different story and involved a lot of memos about garbage companies and things. But I think there were a couple of like, have to take this class in order to be a supervisor. And they were fine.
But it's like you take the class and then you're done. And then you just keep getting promoted. And I think this probably is true in all lines of work, but particularly in higher ed. When you're good at your job as a fundraiser or a professor, you get promoted into these leadership level roles that you may not be good at, nor do you have experience in. So it's this very strange system. And I think there's a lot of challenges that come from that. And I know that's one of the things that you and I both encountered in the workplace, but what are some things that you think we're missing in higher ed as managers and also outside of higher ed? what is the workplace missing?
Jaime Hunt (06:42.297)
I think the work, I'm going to answer the second question first. I think the workplace is really missing empathy and an understanding that respect doesn't naturally come with the title. So I had a conversation with a friend this morning. Her leadership had made an absolute befuddling decision that made no sense and kind of came across honestly as being a little unintelligent.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:55.053)
Hmm.
Jaime Hunt (07:10.209)
Like the person making the recommendation was making a recommendation that was really not that smart. And she had pushed back on that recommendation and the person was basically like, I'm the VP, so you just do what I say. And it's like, I feel like that's what happens when you just promote people up without actually assessing their leadership capabilities. I have a friend who was, she works for an insurance company.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:10.349)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:31.734)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (07:40.375)
They identified her as having potential and put her in this whole executive leadership training to prepare her for being a leader, right? They do not, I've never seen that. And I've seen these like leadership programs, like it's the presidential leadership program or whatever, but it's not the same sort of thing as what she went through. And I feel like her program was multi-year. So it was like, you know, really prepping her for being that leader with a big team. And then continuing to invest in those leadership skills that she needed to lead a big team. I just don't see that happening in higher education, like really at all.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:17.312)
Mm-mm. No, I think there's a very big lack of that investment in leadership development. I want to say, I think people try in a lot of ways. It's often a budget factor. So I'm not going to say that everybody in higher ed is terrible about it, because our system isn't really set up to do that. And I know in the nonprofit sector as well, it's hard to have extra money for professional development.
and probably in some private sector organizations too, companies. But what is interesting is like when I went through my coaching accreditation program, there were 32 of us in the class and only two of us worked for the public or nonprofit sector, me and another woman. And I learned so much about how private companies support the leadership development of their employees. It was...
amazing and horrifying at the same time because we don't do any of it, you know, and it makes me sad that the public sector feels like we have to give that up and work ourselves harder in order to do this work that is absolutely good work. We know it benefits people, the mission is great, but we really suffer as employees, you know, in doing that work. And I was
There was a word, I don't know if I said this on your podcast or not, but there was a word that I learned called the, like, if someone's a hypo, which is a high potential employee. And they were all throwing this word around like, yeah, the hypos get training and coaching and blah, blah. And I was like, what is a hypo? So it's a really, it's really messed up, but obviously budget has something to do with it.
Jaime Hunt (09:58.615)
Right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:07.486)
What are some things, and maybe you talk about this in your book too, I think, like what are some things you can do within the workplace we have now without knowing we're not going to get, especially right now, infusions of capital into our professional development budget? So how can leaders be more empathetic and, you know, start to change?
Jaime Hunt (10:26.531)
Yeah, I totally forgot to mention during my intro that I recently published a book called Heart Over a Hype, which talks about empathy in marketing and empathy in leadership. And I think if you're a leader, and I don't care if you're new or not new, I think investing in coaching is a really smart decision. And I think that's something, to your point, that the hypos get in corporate America, right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:31.928)
Yeah, author.
Thank
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:48.734)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:53.634)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (10:56.217)
But I have only talked to a few of my colleagues in higher ed about that have said that they have gotten coaching. And as someone who I feel very grateful, Old Dominion University put me through the Academy for Innovative Higher Education Leadership. And for the first time in my career, I had been a VP for eight years at that point. The first time in my career, I had a coach and it was so beneficial to have somebody
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:04.332)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:20.174)
Mm.
Jaime Hunt (11:23.917)
to help me think through some of the things that I was experiencing, help me think through my approaches to things. I had done executive leadership training in the past, but I know that that's a rarity in higher education. And so having a coach, I think, is really helpful. I remember I had a friend who was like, empathy wasn't her strong point. And she actually worked with a coach on that, like how to...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:39.042)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:49.515)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (11:50.637)
better recognize her team, how to make sure that she was actually listening to people when she was having difficult conversations, how to manage conflict in a more empathetic way. And so I think, you know, I'm gonna pitch my book, read my book, there's exercises in it for how to build that empathetic approach. But then also a coach, I think it's a worthy investment in you and your career. If you are maybe the director level and you wanna go up to the next level, a coach can help you with that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:12.354)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (12:20.609)
If you're somebody who's like, I don't know what's next for me. think a coach can help you with that. I just think it's a wise investment.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:27.818)
I totally agree. And thank you for plugging coaching, because I do that too. And I see it in higher ed very rarely used. And when it is used, it's often at the very highest of levels when I think the most beneficial coaching can be done, like at that director level, as you're first getting your sea legs as a leader under you. And
Jaime Hunt (12:38.659)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:53.184)
You know, I had a coach, the University of Washington paid for a coach for me and it was transformational. It's why I became a coach because I didn't realize how badly I needed someone both on my side, but also to challenge me in a way that I felt safe and comfortable with, which is hard to do in the workplace because you do have those power dynamics between leader and employee.
Jaime Hunt (13:06.829)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:18.094)
You can definitely use coaching techniques as a leader, I think, but you're not ever going to be the same as an executive coach who's totally for you. I tell people it's like the best gift you can give yourself because it's so helpful and amazing. So thank you for saying that. Can you share one of your exercises for our listeners or a couple of tips that you would give to build empathy?
Jaime Hunt (13:27.374)
Right.
Jaime Hunt (13:41.911)
Yeah, absolutely. So the whole second to last chapter of the book is empathy driven leadership exercises. And one of the things that I'm an advocate for is doing empathy mapping. So that really helps you understand the people that you lead. So you're not just guessing and you're building a fuller picture of their experiences and their motivations. And it helps you figure out how to frame up changes in the department, how to help you frame up difficult conversations. And so, you know, it's a sort of a step-by-step guide of like, decide whose perspective that you want to map, and then start thinking through what do they think? What do they feel? What do they say? What do they do? Like, how are they behaving? What are some things that might be happening in their lives that might have them react to something a certain way?
And then really fill in those details and think about You know, how are they feeling? Are they feeling overwhelmed right now? Are they stressed because there's been so many changes in the department? What are they doing and how are they responding to that stress? And then going in and identifying some of those pain points. So what are the recurring issues and challenges that you're having that might point to what's driving somebody's behavior? So if you're having, let's say you're having a challenge with an employee who's, you know, constantly saying that they're overwhelmed and they're overworked, but when you look at their workload, doesn't look like it's, it doesn't feel like it should be overwhelming to you. I mean, the very first thing is to realize that you are a different person than the person that you're leading, right? And when you actually take the time to sit and think through, like, well, maybe they do feel overworked because you know what, the other person in this department left, and while they haven't absorbed that person's work, maybe they're stressed that they're going to have to at some point.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:15.896)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:32.098)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (15:32.183)
And so that could be factoring in or we've asked them to take on being on this committee and that's taking several hours a week of time away from them and it's feeling overwhelming or they're taking care of a parent with elder care issues and dementia issues. And so while they might not feel overwhelmed in terms of their workload, they're overwhelmed just overall. And how can I be a more supportive leader to somebody going through that experience? So the idea is really to just kind of hone that muscle for thinking about what somebody else is experiencing and how it might look from their perspective.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:10.67)
Because we're trained that everybody's the same, especially at work. We're trained to teach everybody the same way, to treat everybody the same way, because that way where everybody's fair, it's all about, it's not equity, it's equal. And it just doesn't work. But I think a lot of managers are scared, leaders are scared to do anything other than...
Jaime Hunt (16:26.603)
Right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:37.728)
what feels comfortable, which is what they know. So what would you say to someone who might say, because I've heard this a lot, well, you're at work to get your work done. And I'm not here to make friends with you. just get your work done. And here's the bar. And you need to meet it. I'm paying you. So get the job done. What would you say to that?
Jaime Hunt (17:03.817)
That's a really good question. And what I would say is that if you're not willing to see something from somebody else's perspective and try to understand all of the layers that are potentially impacting their work and their ability to do their best, then you really don't have business being a leader. Because you're a manager, right? You're a manager. have a quota of stuff you want this person to do, which is very different from actually leading somebody.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:21.891)
Yes.
Jaime Hunt (17:31.521)
and actually taking the time to understand that person, what motivates them, what might be demotivating to them. And I really struggle with people that don't see people as whole humans because that whole notion of like, I'm just do your job. We're all here just to do our jobs means that you almost, it's like Severance, the TV show Severance. Like you just think that you're just this automaton that just exists to work. But if you think about Severance, those automatons that just exist to work.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:52.62)
Hehehehehe
Jaime Hunt (18:01.409)
also have full human personalities and lives, and they start to act in very human ways. There's no world in which a human is a robot. People are human beings. They're messy, they're beautiful, they're complicated. And that's what makes the workplace work, is having all these different messy, beautiful, complicated people working together. And if you're a leader that's like, I just want robots, then you shouldn't be leading people. You should be leading robots, and that's a totally different job.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:11.532)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:27.214)
Mm-mm. Yeah, totally. You can just go do AI for your life's work. You'll be fine. That's so helpful. It's interesting to think about.
Jaime Hunt (18:34.489)
Great.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:44.322)
Like some of the things that you are so worried about when you're a new leader, or at least I was, is what happens if somebody is not doing what they're expected to do or what I expect them to do. And if you're also conflict diverse and you like people to like you, like me, you can definitely get into hard situations where you're letting things go on.
much longer than they should if someone's not doing their work or not accomplishing things or whatever. And it hurts the rest of your team. So for people who are needing to deal with an issue with an employee, how can they use empathy in doing that? What could they say or how could they approach it?
Jaime Hunt (19:37.143)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest misperceptions about empathy is that it's the same as being nice and that empathy means avoiding accountability. And I think the opposite. think empathy requires accountability. And so when I've been in situations where I've had people who have not been performing at a level that's needed, maybe they're dropping balls a lot, missing deadlines, making mistakes, the kindest thing that you can do is address that because it isn't kind for everybody to be muttering about that person behind their back because they're not pulling their weight. It isn't kind for you to slowly build up resentment towards this person and for them to not know or realize why. What is kind is sitting down and saying, these are the challenges that we're having right now, where I think a good leader can have one extra sentence to that. And that is, is there something I can do to help
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:12.322)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (20:36.729)
with this situation. So whenever I have done that, someone has said they're going through this horrible thing in their personal life and it's really distracting them and they're very sorry. And we've worked through what a plan might look like to solve that. And then we agree that we'll circle back in 30 or 60 days to make sure that the performance is improving because we're trying to address.
You know, maybe it's somebody's like, I am so stressed out because I have this elder care issue and I need to be going to these appointments and like, okay, you can do these appointments at three in the afternoon and then pick up and finish your work day, you know, after your kids have gone to bed or whatever, or I'm going to give you, you know, you can take sick time to go to these appointments, fill in the blank. And then we're going to address and make sure that the problem's actually solved. And in every single case where I've done that, the person has turned it around.
In the cases where I haven't done that, the person hasn't turned it around. They're defensive, they're hurt, they're frustrated, they feel undervalued, they don't feel like they've been heard, they feel like you should magically have known that they were having some stressors in their lives and you don't care about them. And then they either leave or their performance doesn't change and you have to take drastic action. I've unfortunately had to fire people. I've had to lay people off.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:36.642)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (22:01.789)
The important thing is to do it with kindness and empathy and not in a way that's hurtful or disrespectful.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:10.656)
Mm-hmm. It is really hard. Going back for a second, I think it's good to also point out that, and I know you know this too, sometimes people don't feel safe telling you what's going on in their personal life. In fact, a lot of people don't feel safe. And it's very, they don't have to, but when it's affecting their work, it can be really hard if they're not.
able to tell you. So I think there's a piece of the empathy too that is extending to knowing something's going on and also trying to work through that with them, even if they don't tell you explicitly what it is. Especially if it's a drastic change in behavior. Like if you have someone who's been trucking along fine and then all of a sudden is MIA, then you know something's up. And it might be that they hate their job and you want to get to the bottom of that or they were
you know, somebody insulted them at work or there's something going on at home or whatever. I mean, we're all so different and we all process things differently. So I think just to me, empathy is also not necessarily assuming if someone is having a hard time, but just kind of reading them and not making them say it if they don't want to.
Jaime Hunt (23:32.163)
Yeah.
Well, and I think the way that I phrased it as, is there something I can do to help with what's going on? Because then it's not, you're taking the ownership. You're saying, I'm the leader, the performance isn't there, what can I do to help, that might be able to make the performance improve? And if they say nothing, and nothing changes, you've given them that opportunity, they're in.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:40.414)
Mm-hmm. I really like that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:56.952)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (24:03.513)
not willing to take accountability or make changes or whatever it is in their life, they're not willing to reinvest in their work, they're they're done. You've at least made that effort. And that's what being a leader is. Being a leader is being willing to say, I'm gonna take the first step to fix this. And I think that's, there's a level of maturity in that. It's not just, you know, they need to do what they need to be doing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:22.307)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (24:32.973)
And if they won't, that's on them. But if you're a leader, no, it's actually on you. You're the leader.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:38.222)
Yeah, yeah. There's also a careful line to walk between the fix it syndrome, which I have in spades, which is let me do everything I can to help you and I'll take some work away from you. And so you can do X, Y, or Z. sometimes that's totally what's needed, but sometimes that's not what's needed. And I would say we often go straight to that as
because we want to fix. it's again, intention versus impact. But sometimes that impact is really overwhelming too. So this is a really good way to approach it with just that simple question rather than, okay, what's going on and how can I help you in this way? And how can, you know, just really like, what does it look like? My coach taught me something a while ago and it took me a really long time to be able to say it easily, but it is...
what does support look like from me? So when you're talking to somebody, I really like it. The great Iko Bathia, she's an amazing coach. And that has been really helpful for me too, because it's actually getting folks thinking that you can support them from the jump. It's a good one.
Jaime Hunt (25:38.169)
Mmm, I like that.
Jaime Hunt (25:56.599)
Yeah, I love that. What I think about an example I talk about a lot is I had somebody who was a really high performer whose performance slipped dramatically. And I had everything documented and I was fully prepared to actually give a written warning because things had gotten really, really bad. And we talked about the things and whatever. So I wrote everything all out, sat down and said, you know, these are some of the things I've observed.
that line about, know, is there anything I can be doing to help? And what the person came back with was that they needed a longer lunch break in order to work out and that they're not working out was impacting this person's depression, right? And that the endorphins and everything and it was causing a lot of problems. But once they got home from their job, they were so busy with childcare things that they couldn't
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:44.418)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (26:54.925)
find the time to work out. All we did was say she could take an hour and a half at lunch instead of an hour and work a half an hour later or come in at half an hour earlier and everything changed. And that had nothing to do with shifting workload, taking away responsibilities, because I even said like, there just too much on your plate? Like what's the deal? And it was truly that simple saying you can have an hour and a half at lunch instead of just an hour.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:07.768)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And that's such a good example of the system doesn't work for everybody. we also sometimes just have some limited things that we can do of maybe you can't actually give someone a longer lunch break because HR says no, because if they get a longer one, then everyone will want one, which is ridiculous. But I think the more that we can do that as leaders and ensure that everybody knows that their work time
Jaime Hunt (27:27.704)
Right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:50.984)
it happens when it happens for them. And it's really more about the product than the hours of butts and seats. That's when I think we're really, you know, starting to trust people and make change.
Jaime Hunt (28:01.613)
Yeah. Well, I'm kind of of the philosophy that what HR doesn't know can't hurt them. I mean, I've been known to scooch right up to a rule and follow the spirit of the rule. Like if it's like, know, only an hour at lunch is allowed. You know, it's like, so I think what they're saying is you have to work an eight hour day. So let's like...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:07.916)
hahahaha
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:14.786)
Yeah, me too.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:29.526)
Hmm. How do we do that?
Jaime Hunt (28:31.053)
Let's make that work. I've never worked in a place that's like you can only take an hour for lunch or whatever. But yeah, I mean, there's definitely, you know, I've had situations where I had an employee who had a child who had attempted death by suicide. And I did not ask for permission to say that person could work from home while their child was recovering and until their child was ready to like be okay by themselves.
I just did it. It was the right thing to do. my attitude was, you can fire me for it, because this is the right thing to do. And it allowed the person to continue. They didn't have to take a leave of absence. They could continue to do their work. They stayed on top of their work. And the loyalty that that bought me, it's immeasurable.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:06.328)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:21.374)
Because they feel supported and trusted and that's all we want really. So for those of the folks that are listening who have a boss who is not an empathetic leader, what are some things they could do to make any adjustments or you know try to get some empathy out of this person?
Jaime Hunt (29:23.757)
Mm-hmm.
Wait.
Jaime Hunt (29:44.183)
I think it's really hard because you can't change another person. It's just not possible. And so I think you have to weigh the risk reward for even saying something. So if you do not trust the person at all, it might be time for you to consider moving on. If the person is doing active harm, like creating a toxic work environment, it might be time to talk to HR.
If it's something where you think it might be salvageable, but you're not sure how to approach it, I think that's again where a coach might be a good fit because that person might be able to counsel you through some difficult conversations. I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that you have to feel good about your behavior and your approach to things. And so if you feel like somebody's not treating you with empathy,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:19.505)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (30:41.271)
You don't have to pass that down to people who report to you. You can continue to treat those people with empathy. And you don't have to, there are certain behaviors that that person, you don't have to allow that person to do. So you shouldn't ever be shouted at. You shouldn't ever be sworn at. You shouldn't ever be threatened. Those are things that you should take to your HR office and talk about that because that's not okay at all. But.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:44.408)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (31:08.441)
I also think like an important part of like being a Zen human being is knowing that there are just some things that you can't change and you have to make a change within yourself or move on.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:15.97)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:21.294)
Mm-hmm. Which is why I hope leaders who are listening to this pick up some of those empathetic qualities if they're not already. if you're not inclined to be empathetic, which doesn't mean you're a bad person. Everybody processes things differently and feels feelings differently. And some people have a harder time picking up on the feelings of others. Maybe thinking about that and doing some work again with a coach or a friend or a book.
to think about, you could read Jaime's book, that would be a good thing to do. Think about how you can bring a little more empathy into the workplace because I think you're right when you're working for someone, especially if it's toxic or feels like there's bullying happening or you're just made to feel bad about yourself, then I think you're right. There's probably not much you can do. I want people to feel empowered to leave when they can.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:19.874)
because it's not you that's the problem, it's the boss or the workplace being supportive of the behavior of your boss not being empathetic. And it's also hard to leave. there's ways to keep yourself safe too, right? Just to not have to take bad things happening to you at work. You shouldn't have to.
Jaime Hunt (32:37.442)
Yeah.
Jaime Hunt (32:45.209)
100 % agree, but I know I'm in a place of incredible privilege. I don't have children. You know, I've always been a good saver. So if I've been in an environment that isn't tenable, I've been able to move on and relocate, move my whole family. But I will say too, having some empathy for your leadership too. If your boss is a VP, they're likely facing a ton of pressure.
from their leadership and I would say from the folks that I talk to in higher education at the VP level, which is a lot because they're my peers, there are a lot of presidents that completely lack empathy. So they're facing an environment where they may just be passing down how they are being treated. And so, you know, is there opportunity to try to uncover, is this person actually a good person that's being given bad direction on how to treat people?
Or is this person just lacking in empathy? So I think there's something there. also think, you know, I've worked for people who've had a tremendous amount of anxiety. so they having some understanding and saying that this person is an anxious person. This isn't about me. This feels like it's about me, but this could be about grocery shopping. This is just an anxious person who processes verbally. So I...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:54.478)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:01.646)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:07.662)
You
Jaime Hunt (34:13.925)
I will not take any of this personally. This person's not questioning me. This person would question literally anything. It's just their personality and being able to move and flex around that too.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:21.858)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:27.212)
Yeah, when you're in an environment that you can do that, it's so great. And when you're in an environment where the power dynamic prohibits you from doing that, then again, it's like, keep yourself safe, everyone. So speaking of which, you and I both have made decisions recently to leave the nine to five or 10 to 12 or whatever it is that it ended up being. are some of the things that made you know it was time?
Jaime Hunt (34:39.351)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jaime Hunt (34:47.929)
Right?
Jaime Hunt (34:56.345)
Yeah. So, I mean, in this year of 2025, seeing what's happening in our world, boy, am I glad that I made the change. Part of it was, it was kind of a lifelong goal to start my own thing. When I was early in my career, I've worked briefly for a boutique agency. It wasn't higher ed focused. It was nonprofit focused. And I was like, I want to do that someday, but I understand that I need to have the expertise and the skills that somebody wants to pay for.
You can't just like, I'm 24 and I know everything about this topic. Nobody's going to believe that, right? You need to have some experience. But part of it was, I do feel like higher education is in a situation where the pressures on marketing and enrollment and advancement on revenue generation are so high, but the resources are not sufficient to achieve the goals that are set out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:53.998)
Right.
Jaime Hunt (35:55.779)
get caught in is a cycle of missing KPIs or killing your team to hit a KPI and then just having that KPI be raised with no further resources. And so I felt like the past couple of years, and not just in my most recent role, but just over the past probably five years, that it feels like higher ed is amping up that pressure and the workload in those revenue generation areas.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:10.808)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (36:25.561)
and not ramping up the resources for those areas, and you're burning people out. You see people making 50, 60,000, being asked to work 60, 70 hours a week, and you think, okay, we hit the goal, and then it's like, okay, so we're gonna raise the goal by 10 % for next year, but you have the same resources and the same people you almost killed this year to reach those goals, or fewer. And so that cycle of
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:48.362)
Mm-hmm. Or fewer.
Jaime Hunt (36:55.085)
Like it just didn't feel good to me. Not just from a, from my self perspective, but from the team that I'm leading, feeling like you're just constantly having to drive people to the brink of burnout or past it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:57.475)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (37:12.099)
For what?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:14.306)
That's such a good question. I think that's it. You're naming it. It's a relentless grind for not very much money and not having the resources that you need to do the things you need to do.
Jaime Hunt (37:16.76)
I mean...
Jaime Hunt (37:26.275)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (37:34.049)
I I will say about when I was at Miami University, the CFO there got it. He got that you needed to invest in marketing and admissions and advancement in order to bring in revenue, right? But I have found him to be fairly rare. I talked to my counterparts across higher education and it's like marketing is the first budget that gets cut, advancement is the first budget that gets cut.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:44.557)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:57.826)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (38:00.897)
And then it's like raise even more money with, you know, a quarter fewer people or launch a capital campaign, but we have no budget for it. you know, we need to increase applications by 50%, but do it with fewer people and a broken CRM. You know, it's just wake up. It's not possible.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:11.628)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:21.93)
I know.
I know, I know. I think to me, the solution is, and I know how to solve this massive problem, but part of the solution is we have to do less. We can't do as much as we're doing because we're not doing it well and we are burning people out at a rapid rate. And that's why I left. I was so burned out. And I got to a point where I felt like I couldn't make change happen anymore because I didn't have the system I needed. The email system was like 20 years old and couldn't do the things that we needed it to do. Nor did I even have the people to create the strategy for the marketing system to do the thing that it needed to do. So there has to be a way of prioritizing. And sometimes I think in places where profit isn't the end goal because those KPIs are slightly different and they're not
We have to make money this year, but it's more, well, we want more students and we also want our staff to be generally happy. we want, I think it's just easier to not be so pinpointed on how we can get there as opposed to let's just do all the things. So we do something that works, I hope.
Jaime Hunt (39:46.455)
Yeah, well if I look back on my 20 years in higher ed, I recall faculty when marketing was starting to be called marketing, right? It was like university relations or public affairs or just press releases, right? When we started talking about marketing and branding, I recall faculty members being really up in arms about the notion of marketing and the notion of branding, that it was.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:58.754)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (40:11.501)
that it's not a worthwhile endeavor, it's taking money away from the academic enterprise, et cetera, et cetera. Now, if you think about over the course of 20 years, those same faculty members became deans, they became provosts, they became presidents, right? And their attitudes have likely shifted somewhat, but there's still that underlying thought that marketing or communications or branding are not a worthwhile investment.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:39.779)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (40:40.321)
And I think there's a ton of presidents where that is not the case, tons and tons and tons of them. But there are still many and many CFOs that don't see the value in it. And I would say that, you know, when you look at how much the private sector spends on marketing as a percentage of revenue and what higher education spends on marketing as a percentage of revenue, it's not even close, right? And we don't have the tech stack that they have.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:00.536)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (41:09.869)
We don't have the hiring flexibility that they have. We don't have the training for our leadership that the private sector has. And the reality of the situation is our students aren't just measuring us against other universities. They're measuring us against every experience that they have. And we are falling short with what that experience is. And that's because we're just not resourced at the level that we need to be.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:39.918)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (41:40.375)
And it's not universal. I know so many presidents that get it, but there are many that don't. I felt like, so when I was considering going out on my own, I felt like, can I help this one university make a difference and help convince students to come here and help convince students of the value of higher education, or can I help a bunch of schools hopefully do that? And so for me, it felt like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:06.914)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (42:09.559)
this is the time of my career, I've been doing this for 20 years, let's try helping a bunch of schools and hopefully be able to be more vocal about the shift that needs to happen. Because I feel like when you're on a campus and you're talking about that shift, everybody thinks you're talking about where you work. And I'm not necessarily talking about places I've worked, I'm talking about higher ed in general as an industry.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:21.322)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:30.4)
Mm-hmm. That's such a good point, because I felt so free after I left my job to actually say what I was feeling and what I was experiencing on LinkedIn. And it's interesting, and I know you have this experience too, how many people come up to me and say, my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. I've been feeling that. And no one's saying it, because you really do feel constrained by the institution to
Jaime Hunt (42:44.163)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:59.318)
step in line. if especially I, you know, I was a alumni engagement person, so kind of public and I used LinkedIn as a tool to engage with alumni. And so it was very hard to criticize my workplace, which I wouldn't do, you know, so blatantly, but to say things about experiences that I was having that were rough.
Jaime Hunt (43:00.525)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:24.21)
and maybe I make some points about what was helping me, so maybe that would help someone else. It was a really tricky line. So I think there are a lot of people out there who feel the same way we do, who feel like they're running in this circle that they're never gonna get out of, never can achieve the achievable, and it's a really scary time right now to look for another job. So there's this kind of trapped feeling and I'm...
I don't exactly know what to tell people who are in really tough situations at this point in time. Because it feels like, yes, I would love them to be able to leave their jobs. That to me often seems like the solution. Like that boss that you're talking to me about is never going to get any better and apparently is not going to get let go from what you're telling me. So.
Jaime Hunt (44:09.291)
Right?
Jaime Hunt (44:15.105)
All
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:17.686)
you either have to sit there and like take it or try to find a way to put boundaries up so you preserve as much as yourself as possible or you leave. And it's just, it's tough out there. So I just, I guess I just wanted to voice that it's a dilemma and especially for people, you know, like I have a kiddo and I have elderly parents that live here. So I can't move. know, there's, there's a lot of constraints on people.
Jaime Hunt (44:30.158)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:44.864)
So I'm hopeful that conversations like this, like books like yours, will help change, make change at the leadership level that hopefully will trickle down to everyone who's experiencing the brunt of some of this.
Jaime Hunt (45:00.695)
I hope so too. I think we're in a world right now where empathy is in short supply, where we're seeing the leaders of our land ridicule empathy, not demonstrate compassion for each other. But I truly feel like we're on this earth to help one another. And so if you're in a really bad situation that's really harmful for you and you can't leave and you can't
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:11.958)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (45:28.503)
maybe afford a coach or you can't, you don't feel safe approaching your leadership with anything. Now, are there opportunities to get a mentor within the institution in a different leadership area so that you have somebody who has your back maybe a little bit. Find a mentor at another institution or a mentor, you know, who's left higher ed or whatever to have somebody who at least you feel like you've been heard and can maybe help you work through
Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:38.776)
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (45:58.009)
how you respond to certain things. I will say, if you have a president that's just awful, the good news is presidential tenures are short. they turn over and VPs really do too, honestly. if you can ride something out, perhaps nominate them for positions at another institution or something, I'm not gonna say I'm not above that. That kind of thing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:08.258)
They turn over a lot.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:19.096)
Ha
Jaime Hunt (46:28.133)
People, you can tell somebody's a lifer. If you work for a lifer and they're horrible, you probably have to figure something out. If you work for someone that's like, think they're gonna be here for two to three years, can you do things for yourself that make it more palatable to stick that out?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:45.74)
And a lot of that comes down to boundaries and not letting yourself get swept up in the public sector higher ed nonprofit. I will just help everybody and I will do all the things and I don't need to get paid more. It's fine. I'll take on this person's job while they're gone without any more pay. I think some of it is just knowing that you can set those boundaries and having the language to do it, which is often.
Jaime Hunt (47:08.057)
Hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:12.172)
It's hard, you know, I have to practice in my car when I set a big boundary, like I get, I have to practice because it is hard for me to do it on the spot. And I know some people are just like that. So.
Jaime Hunt (47:21.729)
Yeah, I remember setting a boundary with a president that I worked for and saying, you know what, if it's not an emergency, I would prefer not to get phone calls after nine o'clock because I need my rest, right? Like, if I don't sleep well, my performance will go down. So if it's not an emergency, you're not something you need immediately. And it was like, OK.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:36.962)
Good job.
Jaime Hunt (47:50.509)
And then I never got a phone call after nine o'clock again, ever. And I was so nerve, just absolutely nerve wracked about that conversation. And the reaction was like, yeah, okay, that's fine. So sometimes I think we stress ourselves out too much over the boundary setting and psych ourselves out of doing it. I will say chat GBT can be very helpful in like sort of.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:52.866)
Wow. Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:02.518)
You
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:08.568)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (48:18.009)
role-playing some of the conversations like what do I say if they say this back and you know what do I say if they say this other thing back or you know so that you have some you don't just have the boundary setting you have like a script for what you say to various reactions to it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:20.032)
Mmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:31.578)
that's interesting. Never thought of using AI in that way. It's like you're having a conversation with it, which is you really do feel like you are. And I know you talk a lot about AI. When you look at the leadership space and the empathy space and the sort of what we're talking about, which is this real transparent leadership that I think people are craving.
Jaime Hunt (48:35.969)
I use it that way all the time. All the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:00.142)
How do you use AI in that workplace? How do you bring that in and not make it feel robotic and algorithm based?
Jaime Hunt (49:11.619)
Yeah, that's a really good question. One of them, I think going back to the role playing, I think role playing some of those difficult conversations and even saying if empathy doesn't feel natural to you, working with chat GPT to be like, these are the performance issues I'm having, I want to have an empathetic response to the person having these issues. Can you help me come up with a dialogue? And I think that's a really good way to leverage it. I think
thinking about it as almost like a helper that is available 24 seven. So the colleague that you would pop into the office and be like, I need to have this difficult conversation. What should I say? This is somebody that's not annoyed that you're doing that. You're not distracting them from their work. It's always there. I think that's one great way to potentially use AI. AI isn't empathetic, right? It just can't be.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:00.344)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jaime Hunt (50:09.795)
but it can do a facsimile of it and it can help you become more empathetic by helping you process and think through how you might say or phrase things.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:14.318)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:18.86)
that's so interesting. What a good tip. I did not think of that. And I know we are almost done. I'm going to ask you my last question, which is just so everyone gets to know the guests better, if you were going to do a TED Talk on something that isn't about work and this wonderful experience you have in marketing and leadership, what would it be on?
Jaime Hunt (50:21.016)
Yeah.
Jaime Hunt (50:33.101)
Hmm.
Jaime Hunt (50:41.433)
It would 1,000 % be why turtles and tortoises are the best pet for any family. I do have a turtle. His name is Clembob. We got him as a hatchling almost exactly five years ago, and we thought he was a girl. His name was Clementine, and then he revealed he was a boy a couple years ago. And so we changed it to Clembob.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:48.766)
I would never have guessed that. Tell me, do you have a turtle?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:05.56)
Ha
Jaime Hunt (51:07.065)
I think they're wonderful pets. I'm obsessed with turtles. I'm looking at, I have a whole shelf of just turtle items, turtle art, turtle stuffed animals, turtle everything, sculptures, all of that. I'm obsessed with turtles. I could talk about turtles all day. So that would be my TED Talk. Why are turtles the best pets?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:19.095)
Wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:22.668)
I love that. Okay. I'll be there. mean, I have a dog, so I assume turtles are much easier to take care of.
Jaime Hunt (51:31.577)
They are. He's very friendly and he'll follow you around. Yeah, he's super friendly. But I originally, my college major was originally biology. I intended to be a turtle researcher. I know a lot of, it's probably like my weird fixation. People are like, don't, like look, Ellen asked her about turtles. What's wrong? Like she shouldn't have. But I do love them.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:35.98)
Really?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:43.646)
wow.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:49.886)
No, I love it. Turtles are cool. See, the point, we're all complex human beings and you can't judge a book by its cover. Well, Jaime, thank you so much. I have been delighted to have you on. Is there anything you want to tell people to like, where do they find your book? Where can they find you?
Jaime Hunt (51:57.561)
Exactly. Right.
Jaime Hunt (52:11.617)
Yeah, so find me on LinkedIn at Jaime Hunt, J-A-I-M-E, H-U-N-T. My website is solvehighered.com and you can get the book at heartoverhypebook.com.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:25.07)
Well, congrats on the book. Thank you so much for being here and thanks everybody else for being here too. See you soon.
Jaime Hunt (52:27.149)
Thank you.
After two decades in higher ed—nine of those as a chief marketing officer—Jaime Hunt decided it was time for a new adventure. In 2024, she launched Solve Higher Ed Marketing, bringing her signature blend of brand-building passion, storytelling magic, and empathetic leadership to institutions that need a fresh perspective.
From 2015 to 2024, Jaime led marketing and communications teams as a vice president/chief marketing officer at Old Dominion University (large, public R1), Miami University (large, public R2), and Winston-Salem State University (small, public HBCU). Before that, she sharpened her skills in leadership roles at Radford University, the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh, and Northwestern Health Sciences University. She is currently a faculty member teaching higher education marketing and emerging media at West Virginia University.
Jaime holds a bachelor’s degree in journalism from the University of Minnesota and a master’s degree in integrated marketing communications from West Virginia University. She’s also a proud alumna of the Arizona State and Georgetown University Academy for Innovative Higher Education Leadership.
