Episode 12: Ask Boldly, Live Bravely: Crafting the Career You Actually Want
What if the most radical thing you could do at work… was ask for what you want?
Negotiation, salary transparency, and life design from someone who’s walked the talk.
Summary
In this episode of the Hard at Work podcast, Ellen Whitlock Baker interviews Anita Verna Crofts, a communications expert and educator. They discuss Anita's journey in negotiating her career, the importance of salary transparency, and how women can advocate for themselves in the workplace. Anita shares her experiences of crafting a life of purpose, balancing multiple roles, and the significance of having a vision for the future. The conversation emphasizes the need for systemic change in salary equity and encourages listeners to explore their own aspirations. In this conversation, Ellen Whitlock Baker and Anita Verna Crofts explore the importance of intentional thinking about one's future, particularly for women. They discuss the significance of financial literacy, the dynamics of workplace relationships, and the necessity of advocacy in professional spaces. The conversation emphasizes the need for community building and transparency, especially in the face of societal challenges. They also touch on the responsibility of individuals with privilege to use their voices for advocacy and the importance of self-care and putting oneself first in the journey of personal growth.
Takeaways
Negotiation is a skill—and a necessity. Women are negotiating more than ever, but gaps remain. It’s not just about salary—quality of life matters, too.
A clear vision fuels smart decisions. Thinking intentionally about your future—even when it’s hard—can guide your choices and keep you motivated.
Transparency is power. Salary transparency and open communication are essential tools for equity and advocacy in the workplace.
Financial literacy is foundational. Understanding money is key to autonomy, especially for women navigating systems not built with them in mind.
Community is a strategy, not just support. Building relationships with strong women and using your privilege to advocate for others creates real change.
Notable Quotes
“The system is the problem—so let’s stop blaming women for not asking when the system doesn’t answer.”
“You don’t need a bullet journal to dream. Start with how you want to feel.”
“Ask for what you want. And if you're scared, pilot it. Try it for a year. Prove it works.”
“It’s not about having the perfect five-year plan. It’s about listening to what your life is asking for.”
“Being quiet isn’t neutral. If you’re in power, silence is complicity.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Anita Verna Crofts
02:35 Crafting a Life of Purpose
06:06 Negotiating for What You Want
10:40 The Importance of Salary Transparency
17:21 The Shift in Women's Negotiation
22:28 Creating a Vision for Your Future
31:38 The Importance of Intentional Thinking
33:01 Financial Literacy and Women's Empowerment
35:48 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
37:16 The Role of Advocacy in Professional Spaces
39:14 Building Community and Resistance
42:51 The Power of Transparency and Communication
45:43 Using Privilege for Advocacy
48:45 Learning from Others' Experiences
51:16 Putting Yourself First
54:30 The Value of Community and Connection
Keywords
Anita Verna Crofts, negotiation, salary transparency, women empowerment, career development, work-life balance, communication skills, personal growth, leadership, purpose-driven life, intentional thinking, financial literacy, women's empowerment, workplace dynamics, advocacy, community building, transparency, privilege, personal growth, self-care
Transcript
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:01)
Good morning. no, it's not morning. Good God. Look at me go. I'm like Robin Williams. Good morning, Vietnam. Okay, let's try that again. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Hard at Work podcast with me, Ellen Whitlock Baker. And I am so thrilled today to bring in my dear friend, Anita Verna Crofts. We're both members of the Three Name Club.
And Anita is an incredible leader and advocate for herself and others. And I wanted to get her on here to tell us about how she has made some really amazing things happen for herself by just knowing what to do and how to ask about it and clearing a path, which we don't often do. So welcome, Anita.
Anita Verna Crofts (00:53)
Thank you so much. It's so wonderful to be here.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:56)
Yay. Tell me, tell us all a little bit about you to start and where, you know, what you're you're up to.
Anita Verna Crofts (01:05)
Well, my work involves broadly the field of communications and I wear many hats within that field. At the moment, I am both somebody who's an educator. teach at the University of Washington in Seattle in the Department of Communication. I also teach at Maine Media Workshop and College on East Coast. And in that role, I teach classes that involve everything from long form writing to listening skills for leaders to audio storytelling and
Along with my academic identification, I'm also a writer and I'm also a consultant. I work with everybody from small startups to larger institutions on a variety of communication needs. So that's what's currently keeping me busy professionally. And as is evident in my answer here, I also divide my time in a number of places. And so in the way that my professional world is split across a number of different.
buckets in one discipline of communications. I spend my time in both Seattle, Washington, Portland, Maine, and more recently I've added Adelaide, Australia to the mix. So that's, think a good segue to some of the things we're going to be talking about today in terms of crafting a life of purpose, but also a life that has the kind of, in my case, geographic flexibility that I really prize. So.
When people ask me about who I am, that's a big part of my identity where I spend my time.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:35)
Yeah, and that's, I mean, let's get into it because when you first, so I've known Anita for a long time. My very first travel reimbursement when I had my very first job at the University of Washington was Anita's travel to like four different countries, which was really, really hard, but I learned a lot. And then I learned that Anita was awesome. So it was all meant to be. But what I,
watched you do, particularly with your move to work in Maine and Seattle, was unheard of. Like you asked and you got. And I know it wasn't easy. And so at the time we talked a lot about how that happened. So I'd love, can you tell the story of that particular request and crafting of your life? Like what brought it about and how did you get it?
Anita Verna Crofts (03:34)
Absolutely. And I have to first add that that travel reimbursement, do you remember the app Ellen Awanda, which was the currency converter? Because no, fair enough. now, we're now dating ourselves because you're right. This was 20 years ago.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:43)
I don't think it was an app. It was just a Google, like it was just a website at that point. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (03:53)
But now
it is an app on my phone. And, I was just recently in Australia and I was using a Wanda every single day to make those calculations. And so I was, I was thinking about you. So it's a wonderful full circle moment. Here we are. Um, I don't know if that's a great question. And let me start by first framing a bit about where I was professionally and how I came to be in a position where there was a, there was a, there was a negotiation.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:05)
I love it.
Anita Verna Crofts (04:21)
opportunity. I have been at the University of Washington in a variety of capacities since 1996. And so the time that you're speaking of was around 2009, 2010. So by that point, I was already a member of the University of Washington community in a number of different capacities. I had been working with a team of faculty at the Department of Global Health, which is one of the reasons I was getting a chance to travel.
with such an extensive itinerary that would need multiple reimbursements. Another fun aside, do you remember how in Ethiopia there are 13 months are on a different calendar? So the receipts for all different years, all the various bureaucracy.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:05)
Yeah, and I remember that you and the person you were traveling with like somehow missed, there was like a flight you missed or something and so you had to take a train overnight. And I remember having to fight with the travel office at U-Dub to get them to reimburse it because it was, I don't know if it was like, because it wasn't expected or something, it was very odd, but I was like, welcome to bureaucracy. It was my very first taste of like.
Anita Verna Crofts (05:16)
yes, yes!
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:32)
the rules are the same for everyone and we don't care what happened to you in that country.
Anita Verna Crofts (05:37)
Absolutely,
but I could not have had a better advocate in you. So I appreciate that. think our friendship was forged on receipts and reimbursements. And then pie. Absolutely. Absolutely. Always pie. Everything comes back to pie. Okay. So it's 2009. I've been at the department of global health for a number of years. And I should also frame this as saying that by this point, I'm about 39 years old. So I was not, it was not the onset of my career, but it was one where you've
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:40)
Ha
And then pie.
Anita Verna Crofts (06:06)
You've got some experience under your belt. You're starting to develop a sense of what you'd like the next 10 years of your career to look like. And I was given an opportunity to apply for a faculty position at the Department of Communication at the University of Washington. And it was around this time that a friend of mine introduced me to a book. Actually, at the time, believe it was still just an academic paper that was to become a book.
that was titled Women Don't Ask. And it's a academic study that was done in the late 90s by two Carnegie Mellon professors who ultimately did write the book Women Don't Ask. It came out not long after that in early 2000s.
actually I'm realizing now that I was getting my date. Of course it was already a book. This is 2009. So the book comes out in 2000. Yes. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Absolutely. So you can, you can edit all that out. So I I will, I will start that. I'll start again. Yeah. So, so it's 2009. I am 39 years old. I'd been working at the university of Washington for about a decade and I had an opportunity to interview for a faculty position at the department of communication.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:59)
thought it was because I remember you recommended it to me and I was like, what is this book?
Start again.
Anita Verna Crofts (07:23)
At this time, I was introduced to a book that I have since recommended to many, people called Women Don't, including you, called Women Don't Ask by Linda Babcock and Sarah Lashever, who at the time were members of the faculty at Carnegie Mellon and had done some very interesting data around the negotiation of salary in particular between men and women when, either
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:30)
including me.
Anita Verna Crofts (07:51)
in that onset of career, but at every stage of our career where we're given an opportunity to be in a position to negotiate for jobs, for a job salary specifically. Now, this was a revelation to me as I explained, this was not the first time that I was applying for a job, but it was certainly the first time that I would say I brought a level of mindfulness to the fact that I actually had a voice that I could use in this negotiation. And there's no question that my age
played a role in terms of a level of maturity. But at the same time, the book really girded my sense of purpose in that this was a larger phenomenon, and it made me feel as if it was an opportunity for me to, with that revelation that came from this read, that I could try my hardest to perhaps
use this new opportunity to ask myself, what would I ask for? What is it about this new opportunity that I would ask for? And while the book was laying out information that really did tend to revolve around salary, because what we earn makes a difference. And I think that was one of the most, that was one of the most overarching messages that stuck with me. was that by not negotiating, you leave a lot of money on the table over the course of your career. And when that
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:18)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (09:18)
you look at that money compounding over time, seeing it in that aggregate was stunning to me. And so I felt a level of urgency that I didn't want to be the woman who didn't negotiate. And it was at a time in my life where I had a more sophisticated sense for myself of what I wanted. And that makes sense too, given my position in, just my position in life, let's say. So.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:35)
huh.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (09:47)
I decided that it was time to start acting upon things that had been, let's say, gestating and percolating for me for many years. And one of them was that I'm originally from the Northeast and I had wanted very much to start dividing some time between the Northwest and the Northeast. I'm someone who's drawn to the upper corners of this country. I'm somebody who's drawn to those cooler climates and...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:08)
Hahaha!
Anita Verna Crofts (10:14)
And I was feeling that this was an opportunity to start experimenting with what a bi-coastal lifestyle would look like. And so to me, it wasn't simply salary that I was interested in negotiating for. I was actually interested to negotiate on some more quality of life dimensions of work. And that's a message that I very much want to share with your listenership is that Women Don't Ask might have been a book that looked
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:33)
Mm-mm.
Anita Verna Crofts (10:40)
primarily at salary and salary is incredibly important. We'll talk about that. But I came into this negotiation with a real collection of things that were important to me. And one of them was geography. And so the story is that I had the great fortune to be able to bring a, it was a physical list of things that I was interested in.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:53)
Mm-hmm.
Was it really?
Anita Verna Crofts (11:07)
Exploring it was a physical list. and I, I, I,
I, of the reasons that I wrote it down is because you know, you're going into negotiation. You want to have a bit of a script and that's enough. That's another message I'd like to share is that preparation is everything and not just preparation in terms of your, can you be a persuasive ad self advocate, but also preparation in terms of really thinking to yourself, what is it that you want? And are there things that
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
Indeed.
Anita Verna Crofts (11:36)
can be provided by your potential employer that can be done at, like, let's put it this way. Is there a kaleidoscope of things that you can ask for, some of which may be involve a monetary remuneration, others that perhaps are in kind or life circumstance, flexible work schedule? And I will say that it's hard to imagine.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:56)
Yum.
Anita Verna Crofts (12:02)
given where we are today in terms of flexible work schedules and certain disciplines, it's hard to remember how relatively rigid a job was in terms of the physicality of it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you were before
your time, like by a lot of years. So it was at the time an extraordinary accomplishment, which is good. I'm glad you're reminding people that in 2009 we were definitely not working remotely.
Anita Verna Crofts (12:33)
We were not working remotely. And, and so my ask to work remotely for three months out of the year in Maine was novel, but I felt that I could make a play for it. And I'll tell you this. One of the words that I use a lot when I negotiate and that I want to share is the word pilot. Could we pilot this? I, I said to my chair.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:58)
Mmm. Love that.
Anita Verna Crofts (13:03)
I am asking to work remotely for a number of months a year on the other side of the country. But what I'd like to offer is that we try it for a year and see how it goes. And we'll talk about it and we'll be, we'll be clear with each other and Frank about what works. If there are things that feel as if they are challenges, we can address them. But I'm also, I'm also saying to you that if you give me an opportunity to demonstrate.
how this would unfold, but we can then have an honest conversation and assessment about it. And I think the word pilot can sometimes allay concerns in management's mind about something that you might be asking for. If it's something like a circumstantial ask, like in my case, geography. When it's something around salary, that's something where the word pilot comes into play. And that's where you need to be clear about
what it is that you're asking for, what kinds of brackets exist around salary. And we can talk about that as well. And I certainly know that in the times that I have negotiated salary, I have been grateful that the University of Washington allows me to see a level of salary transparency. And so I am a firm advocate in reducing the opacity around salary. I think that it's deeply important that we have a level of transparency because that's
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:07)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (14:30)
the key to being able to have a full sense of what is possible and also a full sense of what the distribution looks like. So if there is an equity, it can be addressed immediately. And so I'm forever grateful that in my negotiations, both in 2009, but even in my subsequent years at the university's Department of Communication, where I still am happily employed, that that transparency has been a gift to me as an employee of this university.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:35)
Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (14:58)
I believe so strongly in a universal salary transparency because we would all be richer for it, literally, but I think also psychologically as well. There's no reason why we need these smoke and mirrors around salary and it really can be a morale killer. There's nothing like it really in terms of morale killer.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:03)
Totally.
We would. Yeah. Yeah.
It is, and
if you're in a leadership role, as soon as I got to see salaries of other people, I was like, why is that person making $5,000 less than that other person who would do the same job? And it was always, they came in with more experience or they have a master's degree or whatever it was, which are starting to become archaic and definitely...
not great practices in HR because everybody's coming with a different way of growing up, a different way of getting their experience. So I know workplaces are trying to honor that more rather than the degree and number of years of work. But it was really interesting to me, particularly because all of the women that were working for me were paid less than the men and the women of color were paid less than them, which is
Anita Verna Crofts (16:15)
That's right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:16)
100 % still happening. Latinx women make less than anyone and women of color make way less than women, white women, and white women still. And we're talking about 2009 when you did this. It's almost 20 years later. It's still perpetuating. And so this is part of what I wanna talk about, which is why? When we know this,
Anita Verna Crofts (16:18)
Absolutely.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:43)
And we know that salary transparency would be a huge add to ensuring that people were paid in equitable ways. Like, why are we ignoring it? And I see little steps being made, but I don't know, I just had to say that because if you're a leader and you're listening and you have the power to make some adjustments in salary, and if you don't think you do, you probably do, I would go in and look and see what.
everybody's making on your team and try to adjust it because you don't want to be the one perpetuating paying women and women of color in particular lower than everybody else.
Anita Verna Crofts (17:21)
Absolutely. And in fact, that's the important bookend to my story from 2009 because as transformative as the book Women Don't Ask was for me at that time, the new research now being done out of the Haas School of Business at Berkeley, there's a journal article that was just published called Women Do Ask because fast forward two decades and women actually now ask
and negotiate salary more than men do. So that's a complete shift from when I was negotiating back in 2009. But here's the kicker, which cleaves exactly to what you've just described. Women are still paid roughly 22 % less in the study that was done by Laura Cray at the Haas School of Business in Berkeley. So we have a situation where women have done what was asked of them, negotiate more.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (18:19)
But the systems that they have to negotiate
within have not evolved to create that kind of pay equity. So you're in treating of leadership to be proactive, to be advocates for everybody in their organization, especially women and women of color who are disproportionately negatively impacted by this pay and equity. It's time. It's clearly the systems. Women are doing what we.
we were asked to do, which was to raise our voices in ways that were thoughtful and self advocating and informed. And we did that, but we're not seeing the, we're not seeing the financial payout yet. And that means that it's the system. And this is so often the case. This is not, this should not, this is not, this should not be surprising. We operate in systems all of our lives, but it means that it is incumbent upon leadership to be the change and create system.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Anita Verna Crofts (19:17)
adaptation to reflect the fact that pay equity should not be a nice to have, it should be an absolutely must have in every organization across every sector.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:31)
You bet. And when I was able to oversee salaries for people, when I noticed discrepancies, it was me who had to initiate that because sometimes the employees didn't even know. I mean, often they didn't even know they weren't getting paid more than other people or they didn't feel comfortable speaking up because, you know, again, it's a system where we don't feel that comfortable speaking up.
it's harder for us in this patriarchal work system. So it was on me. And if I hadn't, and I'm not saying I'm perfect or wonderful or anything, but the point is that I had to be the one to be like, let me do that. And that's such a good example of like, I had this privilege and power that I wasn't using because I just wasn't thinking about it. And so it took me actually really doing an audit of all the salaries of my employees and noticing that
the discrepancy was larger for women and women of color. And then I had to get really creative because in the workplace, like in a university, you're often not gonna get bonus salary dollars. And so I had to get creative and move some money around from ops and be like, I'm gonna do one less event a year, which is totally fine. So I can pay this person more. And I think that that kind of thinking, I just hope everyone...
can be doing that because it's a privilege to not. It's a privilege to just coast by.
Anita Verna Crofts (21:04)
Absolutely. And that recognition on your part that when you are an employee and there is that distinct power imbalance, and especially in times of economic uncertainty, volatility, the last thing an employee wants to do is potentially rock the boat. and, and so I think that especially when we find ourselves in positions of authority where we have a certain amount of
control and direction that can, and you have that decision-making power where you can move around some of those different buckets of the budget or advocate up to management that is above you in terms of making those accommodations for a salary redistribution for an equitable outcome. It's so important that we do that because working in an office should not be flying on an airplane where everybody paid different prices for the ticket.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:59)
Yeah,
Anita Verna Crofts (22:01)
And right now
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:01)
totally.
Anita Verna Crofts (22:02)
in too many offices, that is exactly what it is. Depends how the negotiation went or whether it was there was a negotiation at all or whether people have negotiated at their annual reviews. There's so many circumstances that can lead to that wildly, the chasm between people's earning power. And it shouldn't be like that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:27)
So going back to, we got totally off track, but for good things, going back to this negotiation, so you read the book, you had an idea of what you were going to ask for, because how did you get the clarity on what, because I think for a lot of us, especially in that time of life or midlife, and you know, those of us who have families or elderly parents we're caring for, just like,
robust lives, which you certainly do have, how do you sit down and figure that out? Because it can be really hard to separate that from the busyness of the day to day.
Anita Verna Crofts (23:09)
Absolutely. I'm not someone who often drops Bill Gates quotes.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:14)
Hahaha!
Anita Verna Crofts (23:19)
But I'm going to right now. That's not my, that's my typical MO and you, and you know that, but I came across one a number of years ago that has stuck with me and I'll paraphrase a bit, but what Bill Gates said is that we tend to overestimate what we can do in a year and underestimate what we can do in 10. And what I take that to mean is that sometimes
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:20)
This is true.
Wow.
Anita Verna Crofts (23:49)
Well, let me put, let me say it this way. What I take that to mean is that there's real value in having both a near horizon and a much longer horizon plan. And I know that the day to day can be all consuming, but I have found that in my life, if I can have, even if it's a not fully formed sense of what I want that more long horizon,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:00)
Mmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (24:19)
to be, I think all of us have an ability to identify certain components of a life that we would like to have. And it might be around the kind of community we want to keep or what we might want our family structure to look like, or it might be involved in terms of your vocation and where you want to spend your time. It could be geographic. There are many ways that we might be able to, when pressed, say,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:28)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (24:49)
I would like a life that has these components. And the reason I use that Bill Gates quote is because I like to assure my students when I work with them on career arc discovery to say that don't think you have to get it all solved right now in this next year. Yes, there are things you can be doing, but at the same time, having a more expanded view of what will look
to you as something that you are aiming for in the more distant future can actually be deeply motivating and don't see it as a delayed gratification. Instead, see it as an integrated move towards the life that you want. And I will share with you, for instance, when 2009, when I started negotiating, or 2010, I guess is when the negotiation actually happened, where I finally said to a future employer, I would like to spend a part of my year in the state of Maine.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (25:46)
I had been thinking about that for almost 15 years. This is something I had been working towards slowly and incrementally in a state of, you know, over a decade. So I want to make that clear. I didn't wake up two months before the negotiation in 2010 and say, you know what, this is the right, this is what I want to do. It had been a process of asking myself,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (26:13)
What feels like home to you? What does home look like? What does a life look like? And so the reason that I encourage people to both allow themselves to imagine what a life looks like that fills them with contentment or fills them with a sense of curiosity and motivation or fills them with a sense of purpose.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:18)
I love that.
Anita Verna Crofts (26:42)
Even if you don't have the nuts and bolts in a crisp, clear way, don't diminish the importance of having a sense of it. And I don't mean to sound this, yeah, have a sense of it. It doesn't have to be something, we try to get it perfect.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:56)
Yeah, that's so important. Because we try to get it perfect. We try to say,
if I'm going to have a plan, it has to be written out and, you know, timeline and budget. And you're so right. Yeah. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (27:09)
bullet journal and you know, yeah.
And hey, I don't mean to, I'm not throwing shade on bullet journals. I don't even know what that is. I I hear people talking about, and for some people it's awesome, that's great. And people can have intentional, like you make a mood board, like whatever works for you. But I just want to tell you that as I've reflected on my life, I think some people look at me from the outside and they think, wow, that Anita.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:15)
No. For some people it's awesome and that's great.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (27:34)
She's probably got a list a mile long of just checking it off, things that she wants to do, and it's not like that. Yes, there are things that I know that I prize and that I work towards, but I do believe in listening to the amorphous sense, like what's the sense of your essential self and understanding that sometimes that's just a gut feeling.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:58)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (28:03)
And that's
absolutely worth listening to because I'm not going to sit here on this podcast and say, follow your dreams and they will all come true because I have no time for that kind of Pollyanna approach. And I think people are under all kinds of constraints and I don't want to in any way diminish the reality of the here and now. And there are things that must be handled in the here and now and there are things that absolutely require our attention.
But in the same way that we will not be effective in our jobs if we only spend time on the urgent and the important, have to allow yourself that time to imagine what your life might look like, even if that imagination almost feels like you're viewing it through a gauzy, just allow yourself to experience.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:31)
Thank
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (28:58)
the unexplored and the underdeveloped. I almost see it as like a photograph coming to life in a dark room in the chemicals. Allow yourself to understand that part of understand, part of pursuing what it is that you most value is to trust the instinctual things that you think about.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:04)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And what is fascinating about that, or maybe depressing, is that, especially in work culture, it's easier for people to manage a workplace when that urge is killed or muted. And I think particularly as women,
Anita Verna Crofts (29:39)
Absolutely.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:44)
we are encouraged to mute that in ourselves because we give more to everyone else if you're living in the patriarchal view of what a woman should do, which we've all been influenced by since we were born and all of the various intersectionalities that come with that. And you're making me think of when I started my coaching program a couple of years ago, we had to do this exercise where
we wrote about what a day looked like for us five years in the future. And it was so powerful. And it was also the first time I'd ever done a vision board. And it wasn't like, I mean, I don't mind the woo woo, but it was definitely more like a plan full of vision board, you know? But also like dream, you know? And think about exactly what you said. Think about what your sense of self is and where you wanna be. And it was so hard to do.
Anita Verna Crofts (30:14)
Wow.
Right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:39)
But I had been in this class for four days where we were sort of breaking ourselves open. So by the end of it, I was able to do that exercise. And I have since tried it with some of my clients, because I have a lot of folks I work with who are like, I'm 55. I don't want to do what I'm doing anymore. Or I lost my job or I want to move on. But I don't know what I want to do. I know I want to work more, but I don't know what. And I have found it's really, really hard to do that exercise when you're in that space.
because I think it's because, you know, it's easier for everybody if we just shut up and go with the flow. And so there's a little bit of rebellion in that, which I love, and I love that about you because you've always been one to, you're someone who's like, I know the system works like this, but I don't have to work like this, which I love about you.
Anita Verna Crofts (31:35)
I'm
always looking for a workaround. figure, if you don't... Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:38)
And me too, and me too. Like
I took one of those tests at work, know, not a personality test, but just like an assessment. And like my mischief level was like off the charts and nobody else on my team had that. And I was like, this is why I'm the black sheep. But I think the point of all of that is to say what I learned is that thinking intentionally about your future is hard.
Anita Verna Crofts (31:49)
that doesn't surprise me at all.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:07)
but it's so important. And what I counsel my clients to do and what I do too is start really small. Like think of how do you want to feel in five years? What, you know, do you want to have time to have coffee in the morning? Do you want to commute? Do you want to be in an office or even just do you want to feel peaceful? know, and you can really start small. And again, this perfectionism in us makes us think we have to craft our whole life plan. And there's certainly
Anita Verna Crofts (32:17)
Exactly.
That's right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:37)
no shortage of social media and advertisers telling you that you need to do that and you need to take this class in order to do that and have this bullet journal and you know all of that. And I love a good journal and a pen you know more than the next person but take it at your pace. I think the hardest thing is for us to even give ourselves permission to dream and that's step one.
Anita Verna Crofts (32:54)
Yes.
Absolutely. couldn't, I couldn't agree more. And I think it also speaks to the fact that in this, in our society, in the United States, we tend to define ourselves more than other countries in terms of what we do for a living. And I, and I think that that often can blind us to the fact that our lives are not a W-2 forum, though I want to be really clear. Earning money is important.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we're in a capitalist society, of course it is, yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (33:30)
It absolutely is. And, and,
and I think that women thinking very strategically about their, their worth financially is important. I am a huge advocate for learning how to manage money because it's not taught in our school system in a way that it could be. I think that
I think back to a very early class I took at the University of Washington when they still had the experimental college. I don't even remember the experimental college. was these wonderful short courses or one night wonders. And there was a one night wonder for women on money management. I was 24 years old. I took the class and it was life changing because it was, it was knowledge that I didn't have up until that point.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:00)
Yeah, I remember that.
Anita Verna Crofts (34:22)
came at a time when I could start to think, even though I was limping along in a small nonprofit salary in Seattle in the early 90s, it still made me feel like I had a level of agency over choices that I made financially. And I think that to me, that's the other side of the coin from negotiating salary is also the habits that we develop for ourselves in terms of our own fiscal stewardship. So can't say enough good things about that. And I have found that
aligning myself with women who are unapologetic for a certain level of fiscal autonomy and maximizing the kind of power that your money has. That to me has been inspiring. It's not, it's, it's something that we learn and we model and that people model for other people. And I have benefited from women in my life who have shown me what it takes and what it looks like to
maximize what your money at whatever level can do for you. How do you save? How do you invest? How do you think about yourself? And this, think is part of a larger reality that we have to be our best advocates and in a workplace environment. And I know I fall prey to this as well, because it's the air that we breathe. Women, especially are conditioned to have a sense of the collective.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:33)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (35:48)
and to have a responsibility for the kind of social harmony and lubrication that makes workplaces function. And that also brings a relational dimension to those workplaces. Sometimes we do it without a lot of titular power. Sometimes we do it when we are in charge and it actually says that in our job description. But in all cases, it is putting the collective in front of ourselves. And there are times that
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:16)
for us. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (36:18)
course we all have to do that. That is part of what being an excellent leader is. A servant leader is someone who serves. I believe in it. Servant leadership is something that I try to act in the greatest capacity that I can in the roles that I have. But having said that, and this goes back to I think your excellent observation that if we don't pause, step back and ask ourselves, what do you really want? And not just what do you really want,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:22)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (36:49)
from a career or professionally, but how do you want to feel? That's what I think you and I are circling this reality of being able to ask ourselves, how do I want to feel? And then ask yourself, what are the conditions that are going to create that? And sometimes that relates to your career. Sometimes that relates to things outside of your career, but trying to reduce the kind of outsize role.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
100%. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (37:16)
that sometimes our professional world can have on us, which is, I think, a symptom of the kind of society we've designed where so much is related to, we do not have the kind of social safety net in this country that allows us to not place our work front and center. And it's very hard because that social safety net, and let's keep in mind that many of us, I'm certainly an example of somebody who was born with a deeper, wider social safety net than many.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:45)
Yep. Yep.
Anita Verna Crofts (37:46)
and, and I have benefited from that my entire life. And even despite that, as a single woman in the United States, are things that I need to be very mindful of in terms of my own fiscal, shoring up my, my, my fiscal health, because, when I am now at a point in my life where I'm looking forward and thinking about care and health and community.
These kinds of things matter.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:17)
I'm going to shout out Tori Dunlop, the financial feminist here. Have you listened to her podcast? my gosh. She's a Northwesterner. She's here in Seattle and she is incredible. And definitely one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast because she talks a lot about, I think her tagline is, I fight the patriarchy by making you rich. And her whole point is to teach women all of those things that a lot of us didn't learn.
Anita Verna Crofts (38:22)
No, but I'm going to write her name down. need to. Aha! Very good.
Love it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:46)
What an off Roth IRA is, you know, and she's one of very few women in a space that's, you know, dominated by Dave Ramsey's and men shouting, you know, so, yeah, shout out to her. I'll put a link to her podcast in the show notes. She's absolutely helped me and I love recommending her to others. She has a book. She has a podcast. She does courses. She's great. But I think, you know, that's the point is that we. It's kind of it's not kind of.
Anita Verna Crofts (39:08)
Fantastic.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:14)
It's annoying that we have to work harder to get that. Like we have to seek that out instead of it just being something that we grow up with a lot of times as women. and I hate that, but also we have to be smart and we're living again in a society that isn't built for us. So we have to figure out how to work around the things that aren't working for us. And it was not until I was in my forties that I really had my eyes open to that. So.
I hope that these conversations help people kind of realize it and unpack how they can forge the life they want in a system that's not going to be easy for them to do it, but there's totally ways to do it.
Anita Verna Crofts (39:58)
Absolutely. And finding those advocates that are going to help, think that one of the best pieces of advice that I got in graduate school
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:01)
Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (40:05)
was who you work for is more important than what you do. And that, that, that who is your manager going to be? And I recognize that sometimes we take roles on and the manager that hired us moves onto something else. And so that shifts and changes and it's never a guarantee, but I do think there's a truth there in terms of recognizing where are the managers that are going to champion you when you ask for things, when you want to see your career develop and that who becomes
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:09)
Ugh, yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (40:34)
so important the relational component of the work that we do. And that relational component also is something that I'm thinking about as you're just sharing that importance of communication, something that I love. It's my work right now, especially, but we have to talk to one another. We can't operate in a scarcity mindset. When we learn something, either an author or
Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:51)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (41:05)
a methodology or an opportunity or we have this, we're exposed to some new information, you have to share it with your network because that's how we all benefit. It is an opportunity to expand the community of those in the know that can then ripple it out to others because this is not the kind of information that you want to store away. It's the kind of information you want to shout from the rooftops because you want others
to experience the success and the triumph and cheer each other on that you are. And so I've tried really hard to always communicate with people the kind of choices that I'm making so that it demystifies it and hopefully inspires others to think creatively about what it is that they'd like to advocate for, money or otherwise.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you were the first person I think that I ever talked to who told me exactly what you asked for and you told me the salary you asked for. And I was like, well, we're talking about money. And it was so helpful and eye-opening. And just to say that right now in our country, we are being muzzled. There are many things happening that will prevent people from speaking out, from wanting to speak out, from even being silenced on.
Anita Verna Crofts (42:04)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:25)
by algorithms on social media platforms which are starting to, you know, they've always been a little bit, no, they've always been pretty bad at recognizing that conversations about racism at work or, you know, structural racism or patriarchy are very important to be had. But those posts for me always get way less likes or way less visibility, not less likes. But I guess the point is that
building community right now to me feels like resistance and having these conversations with each other because that's going to have to be how we do it and hopefully on mediums like this that we still get to control, which I hope we still get to control. But I think it's such a good point. We have to have the conversations and be honest and transparent, which you said before, which advantages all of us.
Anita Verna Crofts (43:17)
Absolutely. There couldn't be a more important time to continue to advocate in the face of these sweeping and devastating changes that are coming from the federal level down. And I think that in these moments when our institutions are failing us, and it becomes even more important for individuals,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:42)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (43:46)
to not, this is exactly the time that you can't retreat and that you must be outspoken and that you need to demonstrate and showcase for others, especially those of us that have a certain amount of political, or like I talk about in this case, like lower political capital within organizations or either we have political capital because we have.
We're more veteran than others or, know, our jobs are more secure than others, or we have a certain kind of, our whiteness provides us a certain level of access and power. In these times, it is so crucial that our voices are louder than ever before because it's the, it's, it's, it's when people feel most vulnerable that I think the ones, those of us that, that enjoy certain positions of power and privilege need to be the most vocal.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, ma'am. mean, I think to me, that's such an important takeaway of I know this conversation started and we could keep talking for five hours. I'm sure this conversation started about, how do you negotiate for yourself as a woman? How do you craft the life you want? But I think what you said is so important and we talk about it a lot on this podcast. I'm going to tell you right now, if you are a white person in a position of power in a workplace,
It is your responsibility to be doing what you can to fight this, to bring more equity to the workplace. Cause you're the one often who's in the position of power with the privilege because that's different. Those are different things. You can be in a position of power as a person of color, but you still don't carry that same white privilege that we do. That's just inherent in our society. And
It is really, really easy in times like this and definitely during the racial reckoning and the pandemic for us to just be quiet and just be like, I'm just not gonna get into it. I've heard so many people say that. I've said that, because it's scary. And you're afraid you're gonna mess up or you're afraid of saying the wrong thing or you're just not wanting to, you're like, I'm not a political person. I'm not gonna dive into that fray.
Anita Verna Crofts (45:59)
That's right.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:13)
And if you're like that, you're complicit right now is honestly how I feel because if you've got that extra power and privilege in some way, or form, you have to use it.
Anita Verna Crofts (46:25)
Absolutely. And my response always to I'm not a political person is that we're all political people. by if you if there's a lack of engagement on your part, that's also it has political implications. And and so it's it's I absolutely appreciate that that that there's a that people feel vulnerable. But using your voice is like a muscle. It takes it takes practice and and and it can start in a very
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:30)
Yeah, you have to be.
It does.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (46:55)
one-to-one kind of environment. We're not asking somebody to get up on a stage and speak in front of 500 people. There are people that should be doing that, let me be clear. All of us are in different positions and have different opportunities, but I think your message is one that can be enacted at any level of an organization. At any level of an organization, be thinking about how you sit, the kind of
Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:57)
You bet.
Who aren't?
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (47:23)
especially if you are white, the kind of privileges that you have and to be able to address those by being as strong and active and eager an advocate as you can, because that's going to encourage other people. And it's a message that should not be one that you are asked to, you want to be, you want to anticipate and act before you're asked to. Correct.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, don't make people ask you. And to be
super honest, which is something I've committed to on this podcast, I learned a lot about this from women of color. You know, I didn't come into this realization by myself. I had to learn about it from the people who are actively being harmed by my inaction. And you and I, you know, there's a colleague we have in common, Jodi-Ann Beery. I've talked about her before on this podcast, her Ted Talk about
Anita Verna Crofts (48:05)
Correct. Correct.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:15)
how people of color actually can't bring their whole self to work was revolutionary for me. She probably thinks I'm a fan stalker because I talk about her all the time, but it was such an important conversation. And once I listened to that Ted Talk, which was a tiny thing, I listened to a Ted Talk, and then I started seeing it. And then I started doing experiments, you know, which were how I built that muscle. And so I would offer to people who are listening to this,
who don't feel like they can do that in their workplace or don't know how, just like Anita said, start small. Try one little thing and then observe what happens. I talk about being a scientist all the time with my clients. It's really just, you start small. by thinking we have to do it all and we have to be on that stage in front of 500 people, that often makes us not do it. And that is our privilege talking, because it's so safe.
and it's not going to be safe for everyone or even us if we don't start doing the right thing.
Anita Verna Crofts (49:22)
Absolutely. can't say enough things, enough good things about Jodi Ann Berrien actually to, to let listeners know she's got a book coming out in September called Authentic, which is built, built very much off of that successful Ted Talk. So I can't recommend, I cannot wait. and, and
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:38)
I can't wait.
I hope she'll come
on and talk to me. Jodi-Anne, if you're listening, come talk to me.
Anita Verna Crofts (49:44)
she should, she
should, because that also was a revelation for me that things that I might take for granted, my cultural conditioning in terms of, yeah, why wouldn't we want a workplace where everybody can bring their authentic self to work? Somebody like Jodi Ann was a great wake up call for, again, the fact that until the systems of oppression and the systems that are so deeply embedded in
Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:59)
Hell yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (50:13)
in these workplaces where we all function and exist, until those are transformed, it's not safe to bring your full authentic self to work for many people. And the expectation that they should is one that creates terrible tension for them and for those around them. But we have to be cognizant of that. And it takes really clear thinkers like Jodi-Ann who can articulate that kind of dilemma.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:21)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (50:43)
and phenomenon for the broader public, so I couldn't agree more.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:43)
Mm-hmm.
Well, Anita, we could again talk forever. I have no idea if we got to all the things we were supposed to in this podcast, but I think we talked about a lot of things. And, you know, I think overall, to sum it up, the reminder that as a woman, you're in control of your life, even though our society often makes you feel like you shouldn't be. And so,
Anita Verna Crofts (51:00)
you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:16)
If you're going to leave everybody with one takeaway today or two or five, don't know, what would you, how would you sum it up?
Anita Verna Crofts (51:28)
I would sum it up that
There are times where it's important to put yourself first. And too often we don't. And so there's a tendency, I think, for all of us, and let me be clear. I'm somebody that believes so deeply in the power of community. When I was asked to design a mission statement for myself in graduate school, I...
I came up with a phrase, let me see if I can dredge it up 20 something years later. I said, I wanted to be, I wanted to build community to be an agent of change in the world. I wanted to build community to be an agent of change in the world. So having said that and having, and to this day, feeling as if that mission statement still very much describes what motivates me and what I do. The reason I want to also offer.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (52:16)
Hmm.
It's what you do. my gosh. Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (52:33)
putting yourself first is because...
In the noisy moments of our day to day, in the sometimes overwhelming larger landscape of what my future might look like, it's so easy to lose sight.
It's so easy to lose sight of what matters most to you as a person. And when I say putting yourself first, I mean, acknowledging that you actually, each of us, each of us has a sense of their essential qualities and the hopes that we all hold for the world that we want to build. And to build that world, to
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:04)
Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (53:27)
be the kind of change that we want to be to make the world that we want to build. You absolutely have to take care of yourself first sometimes. You do. And oxygen mask, exactly. So I'm not the first person to say it, but I think it bears repeating because this I think cleaves to the work of your podcast, which is to think really intentionally about the work, what we can all do to contribute
Ellen Whitlock Baker (53:35)
You do. You do. Oxygen mask.
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (53:57)
to a workplace where everyone is valued and heard and supported to the extent that they should be.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:06)
Yeah, and it will be uncomfortable. And I think that's the thing we have to be comfortable with. And we are taught again to shy away from discomfort, to cover it up by buying things or eating things or drinking or whatever, consuming, which is a whole other topic for another conversation. But yeah, I...
Anita Verna Crofts (54:21)
Consuming, consuming generally. yes, we could talk for hours about that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (54:30)
Just being really cognizant of that is super smart. Okay, last question. I don't think I prepped you for this one, but it's the one I'm asking everyone who comes on to show that we are humans, not just machines. If you were to give a TED Talk on anything that wasn't your work, what would it be on?
Anita Verna Crofts (54:39)
Yes.
HMMMM
a TED talk on anything that wasn't my work. Well, you know, my TED talk would be on, so I'm obsessed with chairs right now. I love chairs. I'm especially, but I'm assessed, I'm especially obsessed with these chairs that I see sitting out on the side of the road for free. And I see these, these chairs and I just, I want to create, I want to create, I want to take all these chairs.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:08)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (55:18)
and I want to repurpose all these chairs. I want to give them new coats of paint. I want to strip them down. I want to reinforce their joints. I want to put new coverings over them. And I want to put them back out in the world so that they can continue to be a place of rest. So I am on this quest. It pains me, Ellen, when I drive by a nice little vintage chair that's sitting at the end of somebody's driveway that just says free because it's got a
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:46)
Yeah.
Anita Verna Crofts (55:47)
dowel that's cracked or, you know, the cat got after the front. I am the queen of orphaned chairs. So that would be my Ted talk. The queen of orphan chairs. want them in the landfill. I want to take them, rehabilitate them and put them back out into the world. And honestly.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (55:55)
Yeah
I love that so much.
please do that TED Talk because
honestly it's such a great idea and what a wonderful concept of repurposing and creating space, not only for rest, but I think of sitting next to each other and having a conversation, which again, community. There is a washing machine that has been out in someone's driveway down the street for like three weeks. So if you can think of anything to do with washing machines.
Anita Verna Crofts (56:19)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:32)
Let me know.
Anita Verna Crofts (56:33)
Yeah,
we need a king or a knight or a princess of washing machines, a queen of chairs. have to put together all the royalty, but yeah, no, I...
Ellen Whitlock Baker (56:45)
No, I love
this so much. What a great idea. it just absolutely showcases everyone. What a wonderful human you are. So thoughtful, so imaginative, purposeful, but also just a lovely friend. So thank you for being on here, Anita. I really, really appreciate it.
Anita Verna Crofts (56:56)
Thank you so much.
It has been my pleasure, Ellen. It's always wonderful to talk to you and thank you so much for having me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (57:09)
and where can people find you if they would like to? Which I hope they do.
Anita Verna Crofts (57:11)
yes, well, you can find me,
my handle everywhere in the world is AVCrops, Anita Verna Crofts, AVCrops. I have a website, avcrofts.com. You can find me on all the socials. I can't promise you how active I am on all the socials right now, but certainly either through my website.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (57:19)
You
Anita Verna Crofts (57:36)
All my information is on there too, in terms of getting in touch. And so I would welcome anyone who would like to reach out. It's always a pleasure to expand my network. It's something that I prize is the way that I connect with people and to the extent that I can play matchmaker between folks in terms of shared interests and ideas. That's also something that I really enjoy doing. think that it goes back to that mission statement. For me, building community is one of the reasons I'm on this planet and I do that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:01)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Verna Crofts (58:05)
as much as I can and in as many ways as I can. thanks for, yeah. thank you, Ellen.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (58:09)
you're the best. Thanks, Anita.
Anita Verna Crofts
Anita Verna Crofts is an Artist in Residence at the University of Washington's Communication Leadership graduate program, where she teaches courses on long-form writing, listening, and participatory design. She also serves on faculty at Maine Media Workshop + College, teaching life story writing through personal objects and non-fiction essay writing. She consults with organizations ranging from established nonprofits to startups on communication needs. Her collection of essays, Meet Me at the Bamboo Table, was published by Chin Music Press. Personal passions include hunting for interesting chairs at rural auctions and swimming in lakes whenever weather permits.