Season 2, Episode 4: Stop Performing “Authenticity” at Work — with Jodi-Ann Burey

Jan 28

How agents of the status quo keep work inequitable—even when they “mean well”

What access really looks like (and how to steal it back)

Summary

In this episode of Hard at Work, Ellen is joined by critic, speaker, and author Jodi-Ann Burey (Authentic: The Myth of Bringing Your Full Self to Work) for an honest conversation about why “bring your whole self to work” has become one of the most misleading—and dangerous—ideas in modern workplace culture.

Jodi-Ann shares that she wrote the book because she wanted to have a conversation about authenticity that she could recognize. She explains the concept of "ops," or the "agents of the status quo," who she describes are the people in the workplace who help to keep things the same when they really need to change. Ellen and Jodi-Ann get into how the fear of losing power keeps these agents of the status quo working against the best interests of employees, and leads them instead to practices like employee monitoring (checking badge swipes, whether you're active on teams), which, instead of creating productivity, create an environment of unease and distrust.

Jodi-Ann explains that when we ask people to "bring their whole self to work" we are pushing off the work of creating a protective environment to the individuals who are most vulnerable to the workplace's harms. Ellen and Jodi-Ann also discuss how toxic and corrosive the nonprofit sector can be, particularly for people of color, whose individual stories Jodi-Ann shares in the book.

How do you avoid being an op? Jodi-Ann suggests building community connections and performing an audit of your personal and professional life -- asking yourself what communities are you connected with? Who are you getting feedback from? Who might be missing? And answering honestly.

If you're in the workplace in 2026, especially if you're a leader, this is an episode not to miss. It may be uncomfortable to investigate your own history with asking team members to bring their whole self to work, or encourage authenticity for everyone, but Jodi-Ann's thought leadership helps us all more deeply understand why it's time for change in the workplace.

Takeaways

"Bring your whole self to work" is often a trap. It sounds empowering but shifts the burden of change to individuals instead of institutions.
The nonprofit sector uses mission as a shield. Mission-driven orgs often underpay, overwork, and burn out their staff—then expect gratitude in return.
Access thievery is a radical act. When systems won’t offer equity, good managers can "steal" access for their teams in small but powerful ways.
Authenticity doesn’t fix systemic harm. Expressing your identity won’t stop wage theft, surveillance culture, or toxic leadership.
Community is the antidote to feeling trapped. You don’t have to go it alone—build connections, share stories, and ask what’s actually keeping you stuck.

Notable Quotes

“Wearing my hair in an Afro isn’t going to change wage theft. Let’s be serious.”

“Managers don’t have to be white to be ops. If you’re an agent of the status quo, you’re an op.”

“The nonprofit sector uses mission to shirk accountability for real harm.”

“Authenticity has been weaponized by workplaces that don’t want to change.”

“If you're feeling stuck—ask yourself what’s actually trapping you. The answer might surprise you.”

Chapters

00:00 – Welcome + Jodi-Ann’s intro
04:00 – Why she wrote Authentic
07:20 – Bringing voices into the book
11:00 – What’s wrong with “bring your whole self to work”
16:30 – Authenticity vs. systemic change
19:00 – Performative equality and toxic workplace policies
26:30 – The mission-driven sector and accountability
33:30 – Philanthrocapitalism and funding priorities
38:15 – Being both insider and outsider in nonprofit systems
42:30 – Power, fear, and change resistance
44:00 – What’s really trapping you at work
49:00 – Why Jodi-Ann wrote this book as a health intervention
51:00 – Where to find her + final thoughts

Keywords: burnout, workplace equity, toxic workplace culture, nonprofit burnout, bringing your full self to work, emotional labor, women at work, workplace authenticity, Jodi-Ann Burey, leadership accountability, mission-driven exploitation, pay equity, workplace surveillance, systemic bias at work

Show Notes

⁠Buy Jodi-Ann's book here⁠

Jodi-Ann's ⁠website⁠, ⁠LinkedIn⁠, and ⁠Instagram⁠
Watch Jodi-Ann's TED Talk, ⁠The Myth of Bringing Your Full, Authentic Self to Work⁠
Read Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome, an HBR article by Jodi-Ann and Ruchika Malhotra, and their follow up, ⁠End Imposter Syndrome In Your Workplace⁠.

Transcript

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:00.181)

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Hard at Work podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Whitlock-Baker, and I am beyond thrilled to be joined by critic, speaker, and author of the book, Authentic, the myth of bringing your full self to work, Jodi-Ann Beurie. Hello, Jodi-Ann.

Jodi-Ann Burey (00:30.392)

Hello, Ellen, how are you doing?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:32.709)

I am doing so well, particularly because I'm talking to you. So thank you so much for doing this. If you know anything about me, you know I'm sort of a casual like stalker of Jodi Anne and her work and have been for a long time, not in a creepy way, hopefully. But you actually get mentioned on this podcast quite a lot because I think your Ted Talk is something everybody should watch. I've talked about the imposter syndrome article lot that you wrote with Rachika.

Thank you for all of your work and it's kind of an amazing moment for me to meet you today.

Jodi-Ann Burey (01:06.958)

Thank you so much for elevating that work. And I think the greatest goal of any artist is to make sure that their work is useful to other people. And so I'm so happy that you and your listeners have found something in it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:21.843)

Yeah, well, thank you for writing it. I will have read your professional bio already. So what would you like folks to know about you, just to kick this off, that maybe isn't in your professional bio, if anything?

Jodi-Ann Burey (01:36.398)

Okay, I don't know. I think if you know me, you know this maybe, but I really enjoy snowboarding. Yeah, so I go snowboarding every season and I like to spend a week out at Whistler. I learned not that long ago, but my greatest claim to fame for myself is I went from zero snowboarding skills to...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:47.818)

Really?

Jodi-Ann Burey (02:05.162)

doing blacks in one season. So I was super pumped about that. Yeah. Yeah. I will tell you the first time, if anyone's familiar with Steven's past, the first time I went down Daisy with like no skills whatsoever, it took me about an hour and a half to get down the run. Ski Patrol came up to me like three times, like, are you okay? I'm like, I got this. I got this. And he's like, do you?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:09.681)

Wow!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:25.034)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (02:34.094)

And then when I actually learned the first time I went down Daisy, I timed it and it took me about six minutes. So just to let you know, it has nothing to do with my skill set. Only in that I had no information and then I had information. It wasn't that I was like particularly good. I just knew what I was doing and I didn't spend that much time on the floor. So.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:42.535)

Nice! That's amazing!

Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:54.206)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (03:00.024)

I think, yeah. So yeah, sometimes it actually is in my bio, but I think these days it's not. I had to leave room for the book, so I took the snowboarding part out.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:13.477)

I it. I have been snowboarding once and that is it. I can definitely see, like you have to feel it in your body in a way that like I did not get to, but I love that. It's kind of a somatic thing. I like it. Well, good. Have you been up yet? Is there enough snow yet?

Jodi-Ann Burey (03:21.954)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (03:27.063)

It's amazing.

No, season doesn't open for another month. And then I probably wouldn't go until it's a little bit more padded. I will say throughout writing Authentic, I snowboarded the whole time. I actually got the news of my book deal when I was snowboarding. Yeah, so there are whole sections of this book that were written in my head, you know, on my runs, on the drive up to Stevens and back. And it was really important for me.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:32.671)

Okay.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:42.002)

Nice.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:46.956)

that's awesome.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:53.16)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (03:59.042)

in the process of writing that I didn't stop snowboarding, because it was just really good for my mental and physical health, for sure.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:03.486)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:07.912)

That's awesome, and it's so pretty up there. Before I ask the first question I sent you, that just makes me think, why a book? What made you decide it was time for a book? And how long have you been carrying those thoughts and pieces of the book in your brain before you actually sat down and started writing it?

Jodi-Ann Burey (04:10.759)

yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (04:33.486)

Yeah, that's such a great question. It's a big question. I don't know if the answer is satisfying to people, but I've always wanted to write a book since I was in seventh grade. I had a seventh grade teacher and just during that time of my intellectual growth, I had an English teacher who was obsessed with Toni Morrison, like obsessed. She even got a tattoo of dandelions on the back of her neck from the bluest eye.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:56.18)

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:03.443)

Whoa.

Jodi-Ann Burey (05:03.534)

And so I read so much Toni Morrison pretty early, which is hilarious that her books are always on the band book list. it's just like, you don't, you'll only be able to absorb what you developmentally can understand. So even though the themes and stuff are mature, like you just don't, it doesn't register to you, you know that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:13.726)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:21.394)

Right, right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:28.978)

Mm-hmm. You're right.

Jodi-Ann Burey (05:30.348)

you know, this child was impregnated by her father. You're just like, okay. So in any case, it's just something I think through that process is I've always wanted to write a book. I just thought it would be so cool. And I just wanted to feel the way I wanted other people to feel the way I felt, you know, reading Toni Morrison and talking about her work and writing about her work pretty early on. so,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:34.984)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (05:59.086)

it's always been a thing that I've been chasing, but it wasn't until I was diagnosed with spinal cord tumor in 2018 and the first thought that I had and just like the trauma of processing that information was like, oh my God, I might die, but I never wrote a book. Like it was like very, like within a couple of hours, I'm like, man, I always wanted to do this thing, I didn't do it. So all that to say that like,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:20.104)

Wow.

Jodi-Ann Burey (06:27.532)

Writing a book was something I always desired for my life and my creativity. And just like the discipline that it takes to do like a long form project like that. It was always really exciting to me. But the idea of making like this, the sense or the narrative of bringing your full authentic self to work, putting that in a book didn't really come to me until after the Ted talk and

Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:55.935)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (06:57.126)

When the Ted Talk went out and I was doing more speaking engagements and talking to people more about their experiences, I realized that there was still more to say. I thought I was done, to be quite honest, but people, I really did think it was just like the end of an era for me in doing the Ted Talk, but it was just the beginning of this whole other line of thinking and work and...

Jodi-Ann Burey (07:23.522)

you know, I say this in the author's note, the book is that I just wanted to have a conversation about authenticity in the workplace that I could recognize. And in order to do that, that meant I had to write this book.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:37.022)

Mm-hmm. And one of the things I love about the book is that you include so many of the quotes and sort of themes from interviews that you did with tons of people, which really brings so many voices to the book. If I'm remembering correctly, did you do a LinkedIn call for people to interview? Or how did you get? I feel like I saw that, but I could be wrong. But how did you get all those voices?

Jodi-Ann Burey (07:47.233)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (08:05.206)

Yeah. Well, you know, that's part of the even the development of the idea where, you know, for the qualitative researchers out there, it initially started as a convenience sampling, right? If I wanted to have a conversation about authenticity I recognized, then that meant bringing in the voices of people who were already in my community. And so a lot of the extended quotations from people and there's this one section of the book where I felt

myself at a loss of kind of how to process the harms within mission driven organizations. And so for me personally to kind of deal with, my God, what next? I had to call my friends. And so that scene gets built into the book where I called Darcy, I called Morgan, I called Stephanie, I called France. Like I had to, and here's what I've learned from them. And so it started as me just talking to people in my personal and professional network.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:48.061)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (09:03.534)

And then I wanted to reach beyond that. And so there is this thing in the book where that's also in the nonprofit section where I did a LinkedIn poll and I was just curious, like, hey, you know, for folks of color out there. I mean, this is, as an aside, this is a couple of years ago when there were real people on LinkedIn. Right now, well, yeah, like, I mean, I really cannot tolerate that platform anymore because

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:24.767)

I'm not AI. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (09:33.058)

The greater majority of people are bots. And then the people who are human are using AI to post. And so it's just not a reliable, and people are just like performing professionalism in weird ways. They're like, I made scrambled eggs this morning and this is what scrambled eggs has showed me about leadership. And it's like, my God. So back when there were real people on LinkedIn.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:36.725)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (10:01.358)

I just put a call out and I was like, for folks of color who have worked in the private sector and have also worked in the mission driven sector, what has been your experience? Do you feel like there's been more racism and discrimination within nonprofits or for-profits? I mean, it can't just be me. A realtor's just doing a temperature check. And man, I heard from so...

many people who talked about how toxic and corrosive the mission-driven sector had been for them. And so I brought in a lot of their voices. I think there's like a whole two pages in the book just from quotation from people from LinkedIn. And so then through that process, I got to have calls with a bunch of folks and some people that I didn't know directly.

also made it into kind of having an extended scene within the book.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:02.719)

Amazing. And I want to get into that mission-driven all of that because that strikes very much my heart and my background. And there's, I found that I was just like nodding along with the whole book there especially. But before that, let's just dive in quickly to authentic. And we hear the refrain, bring your whole self to work.

over and over and over again. And I have found particularly from white women, especially as I'm talking to more and more leaders now, I'm like, oh, that's who I hear it from. And you share not only in your TED Talk, but in the book, so many reasons why that's problematic and almost dangerous or dangerous for people of color, folks with disabilities, queer folks, women, anyone who's not a white man who built the workplace. So what would you?

Jodi-Ann Burey (11:36.6)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:55.157)

for the listeners who maybe aren't as familiar with your work, what would you say about, like, what do managers get wrong about that? Or why is that something that is really not a reality in our workplace?

Jodi-Ann Burey (12:11.234)

Yeah, thanks for asking that. Before I dive into the answer, I just want to make sure that your listeners are clear that manager is not code for white. You know, you know, it's not code for white people, it's not code for white women, et cetera. And it was really important to me in the author's note to let people know that, you know, there are some unusual suspects in the book. I have a...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:24.554)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (12:40.11)

conversation with my parents or my siblings, you know, I talk about pop culture. And so there are ways that there are voices in the book that might feel unexpected for a book about work. But of course there are those, usual suspects. so managers, recruiters, et cetera, some of those people are white and some people are not. And I made an intentional decision not to specify.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:04.406)

Thank you.

Jodi-Ann Burey (13:08.878)

kind of the demographics of my interviewees or the people that they were talking about. And so for me, it's because we're not talking about individuals, we're talking about institutions. And so we're really talking about the ops, Whoever is an agent of the status quo. And so you can have a manager, regardless of their demographic, who...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:23.86)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:29.45)

Hmm. I love that.

Jodi-Ann Burey (13:36.692)

Often, usually, you are rewarded with leadership because you conform to the status quo. And so it is rational to be an operative of the status quo to affirm that things remain the same, even if you demographically can signal diversity and difference and kind of trying to push the status quo, but there are no rewards for that. And so I think for...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:03.936)

Thank you.

Jodi-Ann Burey (14:06.604)

you know, what do agents of the status of the status quo get wrong about, you know, bringing your full authentic self to work?

I mean, everything in terms of its purported impact, right? But like, cause I don't really think it's like coming from a good place. It is a way to affirm the status quo. So of course I'm going to tell you as an individual that your own personal self-expression is so powerful that the entire workplace will fold.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:32.31)

Great.

Jodi-Ann Burey (14:46.56)

We will move mountains because you, one individual, you are disabled and you are going to change the way our entire corporation works. It sounds ridiculous of an idea, but it's so emotional. You know, we want to be the change that we see and it just takes one person. Like I think Americans especially are built with this type of

ethos that one person, one hero can change or save the world and that's just not reality. And so I think when we tell people, we want you to bring your whole self to work, it is the best narrative to push off the work of, you know, essentially the Civil Rights Act onto individuals. It's a way of affirming a symbolic

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:21.107)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (15:44.79)

civil rights, you know, that I talk about in the book, that we're really actually just talking about like lawful workplace practices. We're talking about labor practices, you know, the ability for people of color, queer folks, women, people with disabilities should have equity within the workplace. They should not experience work.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:45.237)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:09.13)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (16:11.566)

differently because of their identities. These are protected classes for a reason. And so then what agents of the status quo say is that, well, if you want protection, then you then need to expose yourself. You need to do all of these different things and then we will protect you. But that's just not how it works. It doesn't matter how much of myself I bring if wage theft is a very normal.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:16.871)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (16:40.142)

part of work that we steal wages from women. And I think wage theft is a better way, a more accurate way of talking about pay inequity. But based on people's identities, we steal their wages. Me wearing my hair in an Afro is not going to change that. Sorry, I have to laugh. It sounds ridiculous.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:40.458)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:02.43)

Right. Really?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:07.85)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (17:08.11)

You know, you bringing your same-sex partner to the holiday party is not going to get you health care, better health care. So I think, you know, when people who purport this idea, you know, maybe emotionally they feel like it's the right thing to do, but if you're a manager, if you have a leadership role, you know how this institution works. So you know that it's ridiculous.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:16.116)

Right. Right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:31.094)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:34.677)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, you sure do. Yeah, there's so much there. And the people that I've talked to about this, like I've had conversations even on this and other podcasts about when I hear someone say, want my team to bring their whole self to work and I create a positive atmosphere and we're like a family. I'm always like, well, no, you know what? It's actually not a great thing because

It's so, it's a caustic way, I think, to run a workplace. And I love the agent of the status quo. That's such a good way to describe the people who are perpetuating this culture that not only culture, I mean, you're talking about laws too, but these practices that are just absolutely not equitable. And one of the things I find interesting about workplaces and like you think about HR teams and

they really, really focus on equality, which I find to be a very problematic practice. But it's like they don't know how to do it any other way. Because I have 300 employees and they all have to have the same work from home guidelines because I can't, I don't know how to, what if I advantage this person over this person? So there's this like weighing out of, well, if I let Jodi Anne work from home five days a week and I don't let.

Jodi-Ann Burey (18:36.984)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:01.704)

and Troy doesn't, then that's unfair. And that's totally not the right, well, not right or wrong, but that mentality is very much pitting everyone against each other as opposed to everybody's different and has different needs and different identities and how are we meeting them there. Is there like, yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (19:07.982)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (19:19.98)

Yeah, it's just also immature. It's immature. Like you sound silly. You sound like a child. It's immature. as an example, if we want to use this as an example with work from home, I worked in an organization, incredibly small organization. And the work from home policy at the time was, yeah, work from home. Like that's the policy, right? You send an email out.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:46.174)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (19:49.334)

It could be to your team, it could be to your manager. Sometimes, which I found very irritating, it was to the whole office. And so you wake up every morning and there's just a whole bunch of string of emails that have nothing to do with you. And literally people would just put in the subject line, WFH. That was it. I had a report who sent me a lovely email about her dog being sick and needing to wait for the plumber and like,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:57.067)

oof

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:09.664)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (20:18.734)

All these things were happening and that's why she has to work from home. And I said, Katie, love you so much, girl. I don't care. Like I care about you, but you don't need to tell me why you're working from home. You should tell me that you are working from home just so I know that I'm not looking for you. I know that you're okay. I know that if we're having a meeting that we need to make sure we get you set up to call in.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:32.374)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (20:48.27)

for that meeting, but the fact that you are not physically in the office does not change the fact that we're gonna still be doing work today. Like, that doesn't change anything. So the idea of like, well, I have to give five work, if I give five work from home days to Jodi and then two to Troy, and it's just like, are we not working with adults? I don't understand like, if I feel like...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:58.836)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:13.534)

Yes, we're grownups.

Jodi-Ann Burey (21:17.782)

My work can still happen today at home and for whatever reason I can't or don't want to come into the office, like what is the big deal?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:26.378)

Yeah, I totally agree. It's interesting too, because when I talk about that on LinkedIn with all the bots and the algorithms, by the way, that really don't love publishing content by women and probably women of color too, that's the thing that gets the most vitriol from people is this like, we all should go back to the office. The only place to get, know, to actually do work is face to face and all of this stuff. And it's so interesting to me that that's

Jodi-Ann Burey (21:39.541)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:57.319)

such a sticking point for people. And I know a lot of folks who are in forced five day a week return to office offices who are in that middle space and don't necessarily want to be agents of the status quo, but don't necessarily have the power to change that policy. And they're feeling really stuck because they don't care where their folks work and when and how and all the things.

but they're being forced to go along with a status quo because that's who's paying their bills. And it's hard to tell them. I don't know what to tell them in terms of like how they can make that any better for themselves, but also for their teams. I don't know if you've encountered that or what you might have seen or think.

Jodi-Ann Burey (22:43.886)

I haven't encountered that. haven't worked. I know people who this has happened to. I haven't encountered that personally. But I think if you're a people manager and you are made to like have to report on people, what a police state.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:03.506)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (23:07.662)

you know, where they are, then, you know, there's a concept in the book called access thievery, about like stealing access for yourself and not like needing to wait for, ask for accommodations. And so I think, you know, any good people manager would steal access for their team in whatever way that that makes sense. And so if I'm supposed to report on who was and wasn't in the office, you know, maybe you don't do that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:14.772)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (23:35.916)

I don't like, just, think it's a little silly. And I, you know, there's another part in the book where I talk about, I've never worked at Amazon, but, for, I live in Washington state and so Amazon's, the number one employer for the state. And so the way that people in HR and not HR in headquarters and HQ are treated.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:36.79)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (23:59.31)

is increasingly similar to the way that warehouse workers are treated in terms of the technological surveillance of their work lives. And so I've heard, you know, maybe not just that Amazon, but in other places where people were doing keystroke monitoring, badge swipe monitoring. There are a whole bunch of ways that people have to.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:06.646)

Hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (24:23.838)

show that they're active on teams. You know, have to have like that green bubble or whatever it is where people are trying to gain the technological surveillance, increasing technological surveillance that we have in our professional lives. And I just think it's sick. It's just so at every level, know, that warehouse workers are dealing with that increasingly.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:28.886)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:42.473)

Yeah, it really is.

Jodi-Ann Burey (24:50.542)

and office workers are dealing with the same. And I just think it's immoral to be quite honest with you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:57.76)

I totally agree. I have a friend who works for Amazon and she has to go in five days a week and she has this bananas adventure every day where she bikes down there because she can't afford to drive and park and the light rail doesn't go to where she needs it to go and whatever. And then badges in for like three hours and then bikes home because she has to pick up the kids. It's just, and like, if you think about that, what a loss of productivity. You've got two hours that, you know, this person could

Jodi-Ann Burey (25:14.85)

Yep. I know people who do that. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:25.418)

have just finished some work instead, but no, they're like trying to get around your role. So I think it's a huge issue because I just keep seeing it come up more and more. And then we can segue to mission-based organizations because I see it so much in mission-based organizations. My background's in alumni engagement, higher education. I see it so much in those institutions, especially for like...

fundraising and alumni engagement, people are like, well, it's a face-to-face role and you're out meeting people. you can, I mean, we all manage during COVID. And that was one of the things that really struck me for your book is like, you talk about how happy you were when you were working from home during the pandemic. Like what a difference it made like in your body and your mind. So it's one of many harms that I think mission-based organizations can perpetuate on people. But you talk about

Jodi-Ann Burey (26:07.96)

Yeah, it was great.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:22.09)

You say institutions use mission to shirk accountability for harms caused, which I love. Can you tell us a little bit, tell the listeners a little bit about what you mean by that?

Jodi-Ann Burey (26:35.47)

Yeah, so there's this way that mission is supposed to fill in for the things that the institutions are supposed to provide. So wages. I'm supposed to make less. And it's OK if I make less because I'm trying to do good work. Which in that situation, I don't want to see a single extra

Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:56.533)

Right.

Jodi-Ann Burey (27:03.266)

bag of tea purchased in this organization. If y'all are so tight with your money and that you can't pay me, you have five different types of sugars for what reason, right? Like, there's this kind of like performance of poor that a lot of mission driven organizations do that the mission is supposed to fill in for your wages, mission is supposed to fill in for...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:16.606)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (27:29.624)

Just like professional decorum and etiquette and treating people nicely. Mission is supposed to fill in for protection of your time. And so can you come early? Can you stay late? Can you make these calls? Can you go visit this person who needs direct services? And we're not going to pay you any of that. And we're not going to do any kind of overtime pay or anything like that. Mission is supposed to fill in for that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:34.474)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:41.553)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (27:59.47)

And so I think institutions, use mission in a way to abuse their workforce. And what's challenging and why I think the mission-driven sector is more insidious than the for-profit space is when those betrayals happen, it happens at a deeper level of our authenticity. So we're not just talking about

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:21.237)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (28:26.242)

you know what I call these like markers of difference or accruesher moths of identity. Like you're talking about my values. You're talking about the things that I believe in. You know, people who work in mission driven institutions are the best among us. They want to spend their entire careers, all their time supporting people who need things. The most vulnerable people.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:32.992)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (28:54.19)

parts of our society, the environment, et cetera. So these are the best among us and we don't treat them well.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:02.966)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (29:06.166)

But we like to talk about it like we love teachers. Do you?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:09.206)

That Starbucks card's not going to really make up for the amount of work they have to do every night. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (29:14.19)

How many teachers on GoFundMe right now trying to get supplies for their classrooms?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:20.436)

Are there really?

Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole longer conversation about taxes and people paying for the things.

Jodi-Ann Burey (29:33.656)

So do it. So all that to say, yeah. Exactly. So like all that to say that I feel like, you know, they're using mission to just step away from the work that they should be doing. It's just protecting their workers, supporting their workers, making sure they're happy, protected, appropriately compensated and resourced. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:46.602)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:55.297)

Mm-hmm. That doesn't sound like it should be so hard. But it is.

Jodi-Ann Burey (30:01.23)

I I know some people say, sounds too much like right. I have a friend who says it all the time. It just sounds too much like right.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:08.03)

I love that.

That's awesome. Yeah, and mean, one of the things that I've talked about on here and that I'm curious to hear what you think, and maybe this is so basic that obviously, but I think it's because the sector is trying to do too much. Like there are too many balls in the air and there's this fear of slowing down and this fear of saying,

You know what? We're not going to do that gala this year. We're not going to do that project because we don't have capacity. And we want to pay our people more. And we don't want to have to spend that money on hiring someone to do this totally new project that has not a lot to do with what we're supposed to do. It's like the sector's trying to solve the most wicked problems that you're not going to solve with a $200,000 a year organization. You're going to make an impact. But it's

There's this like outsized expectation, I think, for what nonprofits can actually or mission-based organizations in general can actually accomplish.

Jodi-Ann Burey (31:09.038)

But I don't know if that's unique to the sector. Yeah, I wouldn't say that. I I feel like there are for-profit spaces that are trying to solve huge problems. mean, problems are, they also try to address problems that they're actively creating, right? Or trying to address a problem that nobody has. But it's just like this kind of ego of leadership or this kind of capitalistic mindset where we have to...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:12.365)

really?

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:19.95)

Mm-mm-mm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (31:35.96)

to keep growing, we have to reach the most people. And that relationship is very fraught. Like I say in the book that people who work at nonprofits were often the foot soldiers for philanthropic capitalist. And so where's all this money coming from? From some Microsoft, Amazon, Meta person who wanted to start an organization with their name on it.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:49.226)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (32:02.232)

but they don't know anything, but because they came from the business sector, they think that they can, you know, solve world hunger or, I don't know what they think they're trying to do, but they don't want to listen to the people who actually have skillset in this. You know, I've worked in public health organizations that are led by people who don't know anything about public health.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:11.508)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:22.326)

That's helpful.

Jodi-Ann Burey (32:23.918)

But then you're also chasing money from people who don't know anything about public health. And so, you know, an example I use in the book, I've never worked at the Gates Foundation, but a big part of my salary was paid for by the Gates Foundation because the organization that I worked for, we received grants from them. And so if Bill Gates and his people think that nutrition is the most important thing this year, then I have to take these projects that we were doing in maternal health.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:43.072)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (32:52.46)

and then somehow make it a nutrition project so I can compete for that funding. And then maybe next year you don't care about nutrition, you care about malaria. Okay, great. So now my maternal project that I was working on, it is now a nutrition project and we work on malaria because I have to chase this money, which the grant for that is only a year or maybe 18 months. And anyone who knows anything about public health is like, what are you doing? It took 30 years for people to wear seat belts.

Jodi-Ann Burey (33:21.036)

And so it just takes a lot of time to help change health behavior on an individual level, much less at a population level. And so you're just like chasing Gates money and his fleeting interests in public health around the world and places that he's never lived.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:36.651)

Yeah. Do you know Voullet, nonprofit AF, he writes a book. He's coming on the podcast in a little bit and I'm in the middle of his book. he's, so he talks about this a lot, but what I found really interesting, I mean, I know this, but the fact that people, that philanthropy capitalists, which I love that term, don't want to fund operational dollars is just mind boggling to me because it's like, how do you think this happens? So there's just this,

Jodi-Ann Burey (33:41.036)

Mm-hmm, of course.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (34:07.722)

there's just this devaluation of the people who are doing the actual work. And it's, yeah, not good. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (34:11.586)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Jodi-Ann Burey (34:21.118)

That's the hardest part, right? To actually pay the people, have unrestricted funding to be able to do your business in order to do this work. It's insane. It's really sad. And I think when people who actually do care, like this is a big part of who they are, is to work on these issues and they just see how logistically and administratively and structurally challenging and self-defeating.

and self-sabotaging in a way, it's really difficult to do that work, kind of keep buying into the mission while you're also being, you know, poorly resourced and compensated.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:04.948)

Yeah, you can't afford to copy your paper. It's just ridiculous.

Jodi-Ann Burey (35:08.886)

Yeah, and that challenge is even worse for organizations that are led by people of color and people who come from the communities that you say are going to help. so, know, white women are the greater majority of nonprofit leaders and nonprofit boards and all of that. so and black led organizations receive not only the least amount of funding, but the least amount of decision making power over that funding. So they receive the least amount of

unrestricted funding for the work that they're doing.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (35:43.361)

terrible. It's the and I think you make this point in the book. It's, it's the sort of like, wives of the rich capitalists who were doing, you their work as volunteers and then sort of transcended into this leadership class of the, of the nonprofit sector. Yeah, can you say a little more about that? Because you talk about this in the book, and I really liked what you had to say and learned a lot from you about

Jodi-Ann Burey (35:45.294)

It's America.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:12.51)

the difficulty of being a person of color in an organization that is serving people of color, or you talk a lot about your experience working in Africa and how there was a lot of identity between you showing up as the nonprofit NGO worker and then you as someone who connected with the community. Can you say a little more about that? What do we need to know about?

that if we're not thinking about it.

Jodi-Ann Burey (36:46.542)

Well, I don't know what you mean by we, I'm thinking about it all the time. know, so I don't know who the we is in that segment.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (36:50.184)

Yeah. I think the white ladies who are running nonprofits, again, it's not a monolith. They're not all the same. There are people who, like you said earlier so wonderfully, there are people who are running nonprofits who aren't white and might still be, let's say, agents of the status quo. I like that. Let's go back to that. I'm going to start using that.

Jodi-Ann Burey (37:08.706)

Yeah.

If you're an op, I think if you're...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (37:13.544)

and up. I love it.

Jodi-Ann Burey (37:18.498)

Yeah, you know, I think as a Black person who works in Seattle as the only Black and then one of the few Black people who worked in headquarters, and then to be part of the workforce that traveled a lot to sub-Saharan Africa. So I worked a lot in Malawi and then a little bit in Liberia and just traveled to different places. And so I had a very strong relationship with our Malawi team. I'm not Malawian.

My family's Jamaican. I was born in Jamaica. don't have like, you know, known ancestral links to Malawi by any means. But, you know, when I go and visit the health centers in Malawi, I was born in a place like that. You know, so, you know, being out in Malawi, know, the Malawians that I met there are very different than I am. But, you know, there's a different lens to...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:02.122)

Hmm

Jodi-Ann Burey (38:12.334)

and view those connections. And then because of my Blackness, and not even that, do think being Jamaican was something important to the folks that I had relationships with there, mattered to them in ways that they felt like I understood a little bit more. They didn't have to perform for me in the ways that they would perform for my white counterparts who were also at headquarters.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:27.702)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:34.582)

Hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (38:41.58)

And so when you bring that kind of intimate knowledge and relationship back to Seattle, there ways that you can try to, in big ways and small, start changing the culture of the organization. But it's also not enough and you're kind of straddling back and forth. And so I think if you're an op, that type of person can be incredibly confronting.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (38:55.722)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (39:13.39)

because here's someone who's more junior to you, who is demonstrating a more intimate knowledge than you are, and is asking for things to change and pointing out kind of the structural harms within the organization that counters the goals of that organization. So if you say that you're trying to work yourself out of a job, if you're doing quote unquote capacity building, but then feeling very confronted by folks.

someone who is showing you that our international colleagues have plenty of capacity and they're telling us that this is not working, but we have to do it anyway because of funding cycles or some other decision maker. And so I think the way that this ties into authenticity is that kind of divide between like personal self-expression, like one individual person advocating for something.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (39:49.647)

Yeah

Jodi-Ann Burey (40:11.95)

the diversity of having Jodi in, you know, within the Seattle office versus how are we structurally operating in ways that gives more decision-making power and authority to our colleagues who are on the ground actually doing the work and having the relationships with community leaders and community members, et cetera.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:32.054)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (40:42.83)

So that means you have to do your work differently. And that means that you have less power. And if you're an op, if you're an op, the idea of having less power is incredibly threatening and confronting. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:42.89)

love that. You do.

Yep.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (40:55.53)

Yeah, it's terrifying. Yeah, no, you're so right. I think that's what I'm learning more and more as I start to ask these questions about why aren't we making needed changes or at least starting to talk about them in a way that isn't, no, we don't do that. And it is that, it's that fear of change, that fear of power going away.

the ego, it's a really interesting and kind of, shitty, for lack of a better word. And so I would say if you're listening to this and you're feeling like, that happened to me, or I am someone who has felt that, I think it's a good idea for you to explore that and wonder why.

Jodi-Ann Burey (41:29.57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (41:48.297)

I think that asking the three why's is such an important thing. I don't know if you have any other advice, Jodi, but once you start really getting into it, and this is something Lindsay Jackson talked about when she was on the podcast, but once you ask yourself why three times, if it's really not, there's not a good reason, you're not going to get to that answer.

Jodi-Ann Burey (42:10.424)

Well, unless you're, are you answering it correctly, right? Like why am I not doing this? Well, you know, I like being the leader. I like my job. I like feeling important. You know, I like that people depend on me for how to format an email. Like, I don't know. Like it's just these really, yeah, it's a big part of who you are. And I think for,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:15.114)

Yeah, and that's the whole other part.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:20.574)

Ha ha.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:26.09)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:31.734)

My identity.

Jodi-Ann Burey (42:38.062)

people who are ops who read the book, they will find it incredibly confronting because it will start asking these deeper questions. And so I think if you're unwilling to answer those questions, then I don't know what the expectation is for anything to change.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:44.841)

Yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (42:56.982)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's where I hope that people get to.

Jodi-Ann Burey (42:58.414)

Thank

Jodi-Ann Burey (43:03.106)

Just walk away, just tell people you're an op. I'm an op, y'all, okay? I'm an agent of status quo. That's why we're not changing any policies. That's why we keep doing things that don't make sense. You know, I'm an op.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:06.634)

I love it. Yeah.

Yeah, just be upfront. I mean, it's true. You don't even have to tell people. They know. They know. Yeah. I cannot believe we're almost out of time. I know. It's been so amazing.

Jodi-Ann Burey (43:22.444)

They already know.

Jodi-Ann Burey (43:28.206)

Oh my God, no. Let's do a speed round.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (43:33.663)

I wonder if you wouldn't mind answering this last question because a lot of the people that I work with when I coach and a lot of the people I'm talking to out in organizations, just to kind of get a lay of the land, they feel really stuck. They feel trapped in this workplace that has a lot of ops in it and is making the workplace environment really hard for them. Yet they need healthcare.

Jodi-Ann Burey (43:58.7)

Yeah, yeah.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:02.686)

and they need the salary and it's not always easy to just quit. It's always my first answer is like, you need to leave, but obviously you can't just do that tomorrow. Most people can't. And in this country in particular, the healthcare is not something that we have a right to have, so we have to pay for it. So what would you say to that person besides read the book, which they should?

Jodi-Ann Burey (44:27.662)

mean, you don't even have to read the book. I mean, the book is $30. You know? So, you can get it from the library. You can watch the TED Talk. I would recommend being in conversation with other people. That's like really the north star of the book is to try to build community connections. Do some audit of your own professional and personal life. What relationships do you have? What communities are you in? Because...

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:32.022)

Get it from the library.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (44:41.343)

yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (44:57.866)

What was really confronting for me in writing the book is when I started looking at the surge of work stoppages that have happened since the pandemic. so, hits, people are losing their jobs all over the place, people are dying. The world as we know it is transforming before our eyes.

government leaders are lying to us and not giving us good information about our health risks, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Purely like chaotic time. And in the midst of that, people were resigning in droves, right? People were finding new jobs or finding things that maybe didn't make that much money, but they were happier and they felt safer and got to stay more connected to the people in their lives that they care about and love.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:37.654)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (45:52.084)

rise in work stoppages and the labor movements. I remember there was like hashtag hot labor summer or striketober. We had some of the largest work stoppages and strikes and stuff that were happening during that time. And they were doing that with other people. the class of workers were folks that you would look at a paper who have

Ellen Whitlock Baker (45:56.426)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (46:20.62)

the most risks, right? Even if we look at the Hollywood strike, right? They're writers. There are people that are not making that much money who are on the front lines, who don't have the protections that a lot of people in my community have as salaried workers that have full benefits covered. And so a lot of times I talk to people who are making one, 200,

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:22.418)

Hmm... Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (46:42.666)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (46:49.228)

maybe $300,000 in salary and they're just like, my God, I just, I can't quit my job. It's like, wow, there are people who are working for wages, who don't have health insurance, who don't have any of these things that are putting their physical bodies on the line to create changes within our work culture that of course benefit them directly, but also benefit you. And so I find this sense of, well, I'm trapped and

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:04.852)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:13.174)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (47:18.318)

I can't do it and you know I have a house and two cars and you know, I just can't. It's actually harder if you haven't. Give me a break.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:27.914)

Hehehehehe

Jodi-Ann Burey (47:29.688)

People who work in offices are so lonely and so disconnected and have this false sense of one protection that the things that happen to all workers cannot happen to them. And now that things are happening to them, they're getting laid off for no reason. They can't get their accommodations covered.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:33.728)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (47:47.434)

Jodi-Ann Burey (47:55.854)

They're being misclassified as independent contractors instead of employees. And so maybe they're not getting full benefits or they don't have work security. Like we just have fewer and fewer protections, but we think if we are at a certain pay grade that we're okay. AI is coming for you, been coming for you. Black women especially are being specifically targeted for no other reason besides white supremacy.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:14.272)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (48:25.848)

to be losing our jobs and not doing the work that we're doing or not being visible. And a lot of these same corporations who wanted us to be so authentic have been gleefully and preemptively targeting us.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:33.974)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (48:42.834)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (48:45.326)

So all of that to say is that if you're feeling trapped, if you're feeling unsure, um...

I would just question what is actually trapping you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:01.47)

Hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (49:03.778)

You know, I'm not telling people, and I this very explicitly in the book, I'm not telling you to quit your job. But maybe your decision-making about your work is calibrated against your own survival.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:17.344)

Mm-hmm. Oof. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (49:19.02)

You know, you're chasing some kind of status, you're chasing some level of protection through achievement that is just impossible. And I know plenty of people who have walked off the job unexpectedly to other people, but it was the most logical thing that they could do for their own survival. And so for me, you know, I wrote Authentic as a Health Intervention first and foremost.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:29.078)

Mm-hmm.

Jodi-Ann Burey (49:48.3)

because I think the ways that we're chasing status and success is to our own physical, mental, emotional detriment. So yeah, I think I would just ask folks like, what actually is trapping you? And usually a way out of traps is to be in community inclusion with other people.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:48.437)

Hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (49:59.595)

Mm-hmm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:04.307)

Love that.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:09.398)

Mm.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:15.894)

That's beautiful. I love it. And that's such a good question to ask yourself. Sometimes you're not going to like the answer right away. But that's what we're talking about is that that is going to cause you this comfort to have to explore that. And sure, it sucks, but you get it in there. I love that, Jodi Ann. Thank you so much. That's huge. This has been a wonderful conversation. I really, really appreciate your time. Where can folks find you?

Jodi-Ann Burey (50:25.58)

Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey (50:44.77)

You know, for now, I'm interwebs.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (50:49.514)

Are you on LinkedIn anymore or not so much?

Jodi-Ann Burey (50:53.548)

LinkedIn is filled with bots. I'm a dead internet theorist, so I really do feel like 90 % of the people online are just not alive. I think they're just bots. But you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Instagram. You can find me on my website, JodiandBurie.com. And I hope you do read the book. You can get out of the library. You can listen to an audio book. You can read a chapter of it. Just be in community with other people. I think that's the best way. Don't find me.

Find somebody else to read the book with you.

Ellen Whitlock Baker (51:26.208)

Totally. And a couple of things I've learned recently about supporting authors, particularly women authors, go on Amazon or wherever, even if you didn't buy the book on Amazon, and rate and add a review if you love the book, because it makes such a difference. I hate that we have to play the game, but we have to play the game, and we want Jodi Anne to be so successful. that makes a big difference. If you also, if you don't want to buy the book or you can't buy the book,

requesting it from your library. understand. think Jodi Ann makes a difference too because it's just more demand for the book. So you can do that too. Both of those things would be really awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful snowboarding season and I look forward to talking again soon.

Jodi-Ann Burey (52:05.358)

Thank you.

Jodi-Ann Burey (52:09.486)

Thank you so much.