47. Your Mess is Your Message with Matt Gilhooly
Navigating Grief, Unlearning Perfectionism, and Reclaiming Your Story
What happens when you stop running from your past and finally step out of performance mode? In this episode of Hard at Work, host Ellen Whitlock Baker sits down with Matt Gilhooly—creator of The Life Shift Podcast—to explore how pivotal before-and-after moments shape who we are and how we navigate our careers. Matt shares the deeply personal story behind his podcast, starting with the sudden loss of his mother at age eight and how two decades of suppressed grief manifested as a relentless drive for perfectionism.
Together, Ellen and Matt break down what it takes to unlearn societal definitions of success. Matt reflects on taking a leave of absence from work and making the bold, unconventional choice to ask for a demotion from a director role to reclaim his time, mental health, and autonomy. They dive into the nuance of workplace dynamics, the danger of treating your employer as family, and how finding an outlet outside of work can completely change your relationship with your job.
Packed with vulnerability, this episode offers a permission slip to honor your mess, let go of unrealistic expectations, and take small, intentional steps toward living authentically. Whether you're navigating a career pivot, healing from loss, or feeling stuck on the corporate ladder, Matt’s insights will leave you feeling far less alone in your journey.
Key Takeaways
Unlearning Perfectionism as a Coping Mechanism: Early trauma or loss often drives us to build a "perfect" exterior to avoid abandonment or criticism, but true healing begins when we drop the armor and acknowledge our feelings without judgment.
Redefining the Career Ladder: Stepping down, taking a lower-title role, or shifting priorities isn't "career suicide"—it can be an intentional act of self-preservation that reclaims your power and mental health.
Your Mess Is Your Message: Sharing your raw, unedited story creates a powerful ripple effect, allowing others to feel seen, validated, and permitted to process their own struggles.
The Power of "Micro-Yeses": You don't need a massive, overnight transformation to change your life; following small sparks of curiosity (like writing, drawing, or starting a low-stakes project) builds the momentum needed for meaningful shift.
Decoupling Identity from Work: While workplace community matters, viewing your job as a way to support your life—rather than the sole source of your identity—prevents burnout and restores balance.
Show Notes
Connect with Matt Gilhooly:
Website: thelifeshiftpodcast.com
Matt's books, including The Life Shift Journal
If this episode touched your heart or gave you a new perspective on your work and life, please leave us a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify! Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Transcript
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:00)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the hard at work podcast. I am so delighted today to be joined by podcaster Matt Gilhooly. Hi Matt.
Matt Gilhooly (00:09)
Hey there, thanks for having me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:11)
I'm so glad to have you here and your podcast, The Life Shift.
is really, really awesome. tell us a little bit about the podcast
Matt Gilhooly (00:20)
Sure, yeah, the Life Shift podcast is a passion project that kind of fell in my lap because during the pandemic I was bored like a lot of other people. I was doing my
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:28)
You
Matt Gilhooly (00:30)
job but I was not traveling to work. I was sitting around a lot more, wasn't going to the gym, all the things that we couldn't do. So I was like, I know a good idea. I'll take a second master's degree, like, you know, as one does when they're bored. And so this time though, I got my MBA when I was like 22, 23.
And this time I was like, I'm gonna take classes that scare me because I'm a perfectionist, I guess. I still have those tendencies. But this
Ellen Whitlock Baker (00:56)
You
Matt Gilhooly (00:58)
time I was like, I'm gonna take it. If it scares me, does it matter if I pass? Like it really doesn't matter at this point. And so I took a podcasting class. So my podcast stems from an assignment in which we had to record two interview episodes and then get graded on them. But by the end of that course, I had like,
nine or ten episodes recorded. I had already launched it. It was out into the world. And here I am almost four years later talking to people about these pivotal moments in their lives that have changed everything. So each episode really centers around the moment that the guest feels is the most pivotal. Because I fully understand we have lots of life shifts in our lives and it's not just one. But the whole concept of it comes from my own
what I would say is probably the most pivotal moment in my life was when I was eight, my parents were divorced, lived states apart, and my dad had to sit me down to tell me that my mom had been killed in a motorcycle accident. And
Ellen Whitlock Baker (01:59)
Wow.
Matt Gilhooly (02:00)
at that moment in time, it felt like a line in the sand, like everything that I knew about my life and how I lived my day to day was no longer possible. I was gonna have to leave my school, leave my family, leave the state I lived in, move to a new place.
All sorts of things had changed. And because of the time period, no one around me was like, how do we help an eight-year-old kid
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:22)
right.
Matt Gilhooly (02:22)
who has a dead mom? So I pushed it down. I thought everyone needed to see that I was happy. But behind the scenes, I was a big mess. And
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:31)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (02:31)
I always wondered, do other people have these singular moments from one second to the next? Everything's different.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:38)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (02:40)
And it feels like they do, because I've been able to
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:42)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (02:42)
talk to like,
over 215 plus people about these life shift moments that are wildly different, like so different, but
Ellen Whitlock Baker (02:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (02:52)
the thread as humans is so similar. So it's been really a wonderful exercise in learning the power of storytelling.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:01)
I
That's a heartbreaking story. It's really hard to imagine coming back from that, especially at that young of an age. We talk a lot.
on the podcast about how trauma can really influence who you are and how you show up in the workplace, but I think in life in general. And I imagine these conversations, seeing the breadth of what those moments are like, you probably really, really see how individual everyone's trauma is and how it might affect them differently.
Matt Gilhooly (03:35)
yes and it seems very similar, just maybe in a different order.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (03:40)
because also to, for myself, mine was like an external trauma, but other
Ellen Whitlock Baker (03:45)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (03:45)
people have things that are not like done to them. Something happens or, you know, they're diagnosed with something and then they're facing in a different way and it's not quite as like totally hands off. Like I couldn't...
control anything like now they have to fix whatever is happening. So there's like a different approach. But at the same
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:03)
Hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (04:04)
time, I think the grief is is similar. But
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:07)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (04:09)
the commonplace thing is that most of my guests that have faced grief in some way or trauma in some way, had no tools to figure it out.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:17)
Yeah,
yeah. What do you see as the thread for people? And also curious, other than the podcast, what are some tools that helped you and what do you see that are sort of commonalities between tools, if any?
Matt Gilhooly (04:34)
I was a mess. It took me 20 plus years to fully grieve the death of my mom. And because I was just avoiding it for so long, like I just didn't know that I needed to do something. I pushed it down so far that it just, it would manifest in other ways that were really toxic for myself
Ellen Whitlock Baker (04:54)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (04:55)
and my approach to life. Like I was saying it,
force me to be a perfectionist, not because anyone forced
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:01)
Hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (05:02)
me to do that, but because I thought that's how I get through life so other people don't abandon me. Because when you're eight, a death feels like abandonment.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (05:12)
And so what that means for me is that like everything that I did was only because I needed to show everyone that I was perfect. So the jobs I took, the programs in college that I took, all the things that I did probably until like 35.
were with a mindset of like, I just need to do what's next on the list. And
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:35)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (05:35)
then I finally got to a point where I was like, this can't be what life is, what they've described life to be. And so
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (05:46)
I did talk therapy and that was the space where a different event, I was hating my job and a particular person at my job.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (05:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (05:57)
And that was what got me to go to therapy.
So I was able to kind of process that and as a byproduct of that, my whole story came up and, and
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:08)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (06:08)
really ties to like why that person really crushed me in so many ways. And then I was like, clouds parted, we said a couple things in the
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:17)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (06:18)
therapist office and I was able to grieve it. And I thought that was the only option for grief, like talk therapy.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:24)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (06:25)
until I started this
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:25)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (06:26)
podcast and I've heard so many modalities that people approach to kind of move through the world and it might not be a trauma, it might not be grief, but it's something that they're stuck in and they've done like EMDR and they've done psilocybin and they've done, you know, like all sorts of ketamine and all the things that I'm like, what, that exists? Like you can do those things? And it's beautiful to hear these stories because what I think it does is for the listener,
It's almost like getting permission to try something. And,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (06:56)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (06:59)
that worked for so-and-so. Knowing full well it might not work for them, but it's an option. It's something to try.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:04)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (07:05)
So I think hearing all these stories just really opened my eyes to
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:09)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (07:10)
there's so many things that you can do with intention as long as you're open to it, but gotta be open to it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:17)
I love so much about what you just said, especially the richness that comes from having those sort of open, honest, real conversations with so many people. There's such a community that you've built in that. And this sense, not just for your listeners, but for the participants and anyone who might be going through it in any way, or form, has these beautiful stories to listen to that just give you something.
It feels like someone else has gone through some bad stuff, if you're going through some bad stuff. Not to say like anyone's trauma is worse than anyone else. It's not a comparative thing. It's just a like, I'm
Matt Gilhooly (07:55)
But we do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (07:56)
not alone. And I know we totally do that, but it's like, I'm not alone in this sort of really awful
Matt Gilhooly (08:01)
Exactly.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:01)
feeling I'm having and not knowing what to do with it, wherever it's coming from.
Matt Gilhooly (08:06)
Yeah, that's my whole goal is that each episode finds the ears that needed to hear it the most so that they feel less
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:11)
Hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (08:11)
alone in their experience. Because I think of that eight year old version of Matt, who couldn't really process having a dead mom. And I think, well, like, what if I had heard 40 something year old Matt right here, like saying he was okay, because in the moment you're like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:26)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (08:27)
like, how do I live
what do I do now? And so many people understand that feeling. And I ask a similar question at the end of every episode. And I'll tell you, probably 85, 90 % of them say the same exact thing to their
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:42)
Really?
Matt Gilhooly (08:43)
younger self. Because I kind of go back to like right before the pivotal moment or a period in which they were quite different than they are now. And everyone's like, it's going to be okay. Because that's the last thing we think it's going to be in those moments, right?
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:58)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (08:59)
We've all been there.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (08:59)
It's really
hard when you're early in the grief process. It's like you have the moments of it. Like, okay, this might be okay, but then you just, something reminds you of some, know, whatever it is you're grieving and, or whoever. Oh yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (09:12)
And then you welcome shame in the door, right? Because you're not quote unquote,
grieving correctly. people sometimes
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:20)
my gosh.
Matt Gilhooly (09:20)
are like, how do I do this? I'm like, I am not a grief expert and nor could anyone really be because it's different for
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:27)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:28)
everyone. But the one thing I do remind humans, people that are in these moments is you are allowed to feel however you need to feel and however
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:37)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:38)
you feel at any moment in time. So,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:40)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:40)
you want to be sad, if you want to be mad, if you're watching something
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:43)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:43)
on TV and you laugh, all of it's okay because you're a human. But I think so many of us
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:48)
that are in that are like, I have to be sad. And if I'm
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:51)
Right?
Matt Gilhooly (09:51)
not sad, everyone's gonna think I'm over it or I didn't love the person or I didn't
Ellen Whitlock Baker (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (09:57)
love the thing or whatever it may be. And it's just not true, but we've somehow along the way just picked that up as rules to grieve.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:07)
Yeah, well, we focus on what other people think and instead
Matt Gilhooly (10:10)
Totally.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:11)
of what we need, and we've talked about it a lot here, but we're expected to meet certain expectations and we're expected to, whether it's society or ones we put on ourselves, but because of what we think other people are thinking of
Matt Gilhooly (10:27)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (10:27)
us. And at a certain point, you can...
actually say, those are unreasonable expectations. And I don't have to try to meet them all. And that's where I talk a lot on this podcast and with my clients is like, when you have that aha moment, maybe even a pivotal moment, a life shift moment of, it's not my fault that I am feeling like I'm not grieving properly or burnt out or like I'm suppressing my emotions. And it's not necessarily a blame thing, but it's not all my fault.
it's actually that everything that is expected of me and I'm expecting of myself, not one human could actually meet all of those expectations. but when you sit down and actually have that conversation with yourself, you can't go back. It's like your eyes are open and you realize that you are from that point on, you're gonna go through life in a different way. And
Matt Gilhooly (11:25)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (11:25)
I...
I know that trauma can bring that moment. It can come at work. It can come all sorts of different places. But it's really hard to think about how hard we've been on ourselves over the years about things that are so personal, like grieving. Right?
Matt Gilhooly (11:45)
Yeah, and
no one cares, right? Like we think everyone cares about all the things we're putting as much of our body soul mind into. like, it's like, that's what a realization for me, like when I was blessed to kind of watch my grandmother pass away after her battle of cancer, I was like, this crap doesn't matter. Like none of this matters. Like I
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:09)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (12:10)
went into work, I took immediately, I was like,
I'm going to take some FMLA leave. I'm going to head on grief because I knew how crappy I did it after I lost my mom. So I took 10 weeks off and then I came back and I was like, hello, I'm in my 30s. I would like a demotion. you're like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:26)
Wow.
Matt Gilhooly (12:28)
old version of me would have been like, that's career suicide. Everyone around me was like, you shouldn't do that. You're 30 something, blah, blah, I don't care. You know, I have to live now.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:39)
That's amazing. Yeah.
That's tough. No, I know.
Matt Gilhooly (12:42)
which is totally not how I was for 30 something years.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (12:46)
And again, I think the majority of my listeners would resonate with perfectionism and not necessarily feeling the feelings when they're coming up. talk more about that, though. I have had some clients who've done that. I have thought of doing that, the demotion. Because when I reached my peak, I was like, I don't want to do this.
I wasn't honest with myself because it was like where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to like. So what happened?
Matt Gilhooly (13:10)
Right? Supposed to.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:13)
Yeah, right, it's the supposed, but what happened for you?
what made you decide and what was the difference in the job?
Matt Gilhooly (13:18)
I
I mean, I think it was triggered from having some of those final conversations with my grandmother. I'll say, you know, having grieved terribly after losing my mom taught me how to do it right for me when I was losing my grandmother to the point and
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (13:37)
I'll, I'm so happy that I did this. It was very hard, but about two months before she died, I said, we're having the conversation right now. And so we sat down with each other.
for like an hour, hour and a half and told each other everything. And like
Ellen Whitlock Baker (13:52)
Hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (13:53)
bad, good, indifferent, all the things we meant to each other, all the things that like people at the funeral are like, I wish I would have said this. When I left her apartment that night, I knew that if she died, there would be nothing left unsaid. And for me, that was
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:07)
Wow.
Matt Gilhooly (14:08)
impactful. And part of that, I say that because part of the conversation was like, she knew she was dying and she also knew she had regrets.
She knew that she worried about
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (14:21)
so many things that never came to pass. And she was like, I just wish
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:25)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (14:26)
I hadn't worried so much. And so that I think
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:28)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (14:30)
seeing how devastated she was about all the time that she wasted in her opinion, worrying about things
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:36)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (14:37)
that were likely never going to happen, kind of planted a seed. And so when I was taking that FMLA leave, my goals were zero.
My goals were to be a human as much as I can without the distraction of work. And as I sat with myself for
Ellen Whitlock Baker (14:54)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (14:56)
all that time and did fun things and did boring things and whatever I did, I realized I can't. I was at a director level at a higher education school
And I was leading the first semester for all undergraduate students and
That was the role in which this person who I named bulldozer because I was just creating
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:15)
Ha ha ha!
Matt Gilhooly (15:17)
really good things. But I believe this person had their own trauma and problems that they just bulldozed anything that I did that was remotely like effective. And so it's like, I
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (15:30)
don't, I don't need to go to work, hate every second of it.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:37)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (15:37)
come home at
5.30 and just go to bed because I don't want to be awake. Like, that's not
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:43)
it's so sad, but a lot of us are there.
Matt Gilhooly (15:46)
And it's not because, like you just want to go to sleep so you don't have to accidentally think about work. know, or, yeah, it was totally what I was doing.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (15:53)
It's a way to avoid it, yeah, for sure. But then you can't sleep sometimes because you're thinking
about work and you're sitting there ruminating on why this one person is bothering you so much and why am I letting them get to me? And it's so frustrating and in doing that,
Matt Gilhooly (16:08)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:09)
you're just perpetuating that cycle in your brain, you know?
Matt Gilhooly (16:12)
Yeah,
and for me as an empathetic person, I had a team of like 30 teachers and like department chairs and things like that. And so I'm the shield. So now I'm taking on even more and then trying to find ways to process that information and relay it in a way that doesn't blow up 30 people's lives because it would every time. And I was like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (16:33)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (16:34)
I don't have the energy right now to be a savior.
And it's not that important. The salary is great, great, but my life is more important. And so I walked into my boss's office and her brought her boss into it. And I was like, you know, I love working in this space, but I just, need to step down from this role. And fortunately I was a department chair before that role was created for me. And so that opened up again and I was able to transition to a little lower.
a little less responsibility, something I knew how to do. And it was a stopgap. It was just the ability to like breathe again and just like move through. Did I love it? No. And then I decided, okay, I have an opportunity to move to Colorado and take a sabbatical for a year and live
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:24)
Hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (17:24)
with a family friend and just do whatever she needs help with and enjoy myself. And that was really probably the time where I kind of realized that
conveyor belt wasn't necessary anymore. The society's
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:40)
Yeah. Yep.
Matt Gilhooly (17:41)
checklist of get promoted, get promoted, get promoted, get promoted, you know,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:44)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (17:46)
none of it mattered. Nobody cared about what I did at
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:49)
Mm-mm.
Matt Gilhooly (17:49)
the beginning or the end. They didn't even know what I did. Nobody cared. I just thought,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:54)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (17:55)
this is important for everyone to see that I am a director of whatever and nobody cared. So it was
Ellen Whitlock Baker (17:58)
Mm-hmm. my gosh. Yep. Yep.
Matt Gilhooly (18:01)
a really beautiful opportunity for me to take the power back.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:07)
what a good example of something you can do if you're stuck, if you feel stuck in a role and you just can't anymore with especially the high level nature of it. Taking a different job in the same organization is totally an option while you're waiting to figure out what's really next.
Matt Gilhooly (18:25)
Mm-hmm. Just don't burn bridges.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:28)
Yeah, yeah, don't burn bridges, but like.
That's such an interesting point because it's like, if you aren't going to 17 meetings a day, then you actually have time to do your work and you can maybe just kind of process everything a little bit different and have time to think about what's next for you.
Matt Gilhooly (18:46)
And in that demotion request, I didn't come in like mad. I didn't come in like
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:53)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (18:54)
I hate this job. And that I think some people because you get to that breaking point, you might burn bridges. So I think it's really important
Ellen Whitlock Baker (18:59)
Exactly. Yep.
Matt Gilhooly (19:01)
if anyone's like on that fence and wants to like
open that dialogue, it needs to come from a really authentic and genuine self. And I poured all the vulnerability I had in there saying like, that's not an easy ask, right? I feel like nobody's
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:14)
Hmm. Mm-mm.
Matt Gilhooly (19:17)
could nobody's trained to do that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (19:19)
No, no.
And then I'm sure everyone was like, did he get demoted? Rather than it was your choice, you know, because the rumor mill is rampant. That's good. You started it. That's good.
Matt Gilhooly (19:27)
Yeah, I own the story. Yeah, I own the story. yeah,
and everyone knew because I am because I wasn't for so long. Now, I am open with everything, probably to my detriment, but open with everything that is happening in my head, because I wasn't allowed to for so long. And so that's what the beauty of the life shift podcast of just being able to like,
be vulnerable with another human and talk about the things that so many of us grew up being like, we don't talk about this, we don't talk about that, we only tell them the good things. And now we can say, no, I don't agree with that and here's my mess. And a
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:12)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (20:12)
guest of mine was like, your mess is your message. And I was like, I like that.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:16)
Ooh,
that needs to be a shirt. I like that. Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (20:18)
sure it is.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:20)
Unlearning all of that, to use a phrase from one of my prior guests, Lindsay Jackson, like unlearning is real hard. And it's not, it's not like you have this shift, like I was describing earlier and the, you know, the clouds part, and then you're a totally new person. It's like you have that shift and then you're up and down and up and down and up and down for months, maybe even years because
Matt Gilhooly (20:42)
and you have to do the work.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (20:43)
you have to do the work and everybody does the work in their own way. there's this grief of I was supposed to be this and now I'm not.
and I made the choice myself to not be, but it takes a while to unlearn that that actually wasn't what you wanted. Or if you did, it's okay that you don't want it anymore. But that
Matt Gilhooly (21:04)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:05)
feels really bad sometimes and that's okay. yeah, it's okay.
Matt Gilhooly (21:10)
that's the point. It's okay.
And so many of the guests that I've talked to, and just people that I talked to is like, when you feel mad or bad about something, then you introduce the shame where you're like, I shouldn't feel this way. Because look at all the blessings. And it's like, No, you just feel like crap. And
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:27)
yeah. Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (21:28)
that's okay, because you are human.
I found that
as soon as I was able to acknowledge how I felt and not rush to fix it. that's when I was able
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:38)
Hmm
Matt Gilhooly (21:40)
to to make some progress because it was like, all right, you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and you feel terrible today. Okay, you're not gonna be here forever. You know what you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:48)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (21:50)
normally do to process this have at it but don't feel like you need
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (21:54)
to turn that frown upside down right like I feel like that's just right exactly.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (21:58)
Ugh, I hate that stuff.
Matt Gilhooly (22:01)
But so many of us, we just grew up realizing like, you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:03)
Mm-hmm. That's what we were told. Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (22:06)
have to be happy all the time. Or if you're grieving,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:08)
Yeah, or don't be emotional. It's not professional. Yep.
Matt Gilhooly (22:11)
exactly. really this whole journey of the last almost four years of talking to just a bunch of strangers around the world about their deeply personal stories is that it's about the power of storytelling for all the parties like you mentioned. It's like things in my head are much messier.
than when I say them out loud. And then I'm like, okay, it's not that bad. And so like, when
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:31)
Totally.
Matt Gilhooly (22:31)
someone's telling their story and like piecing things together and how this life shift moment has like changed them, they leave with different perspectives of themselves, because all those words came out. I leave with different
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (22:45)
perspectives of my own journey, because hearing someone else's story is kind of like holding up a mirror a lot of times, right? And like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (22:51)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Matt Gilhooly (22:52)
they had the same loss as me.
but they approached it so differently because they had XYZ in their life. And so it's so silly to say that I didn't maybe realize the true power of storytelling before. Like I knew it, but
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:04)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (23:06)
when you witness it firsthand and with open arms and just kind of ready to do it, I think it makes everything better, including work, including your hobbies, including
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:16)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (23:17)
just like stuff with your friends, because you're like, I'm a full person, here I am.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:21)
Yeah, here's my whole mess. Yeah. And someone else is like, me too. I'm messy also. And you're like, good. OK, it's not just me. Hooray.
Matt Gilhooly (23:24)
And exactly. But if you share your
mess, then they're like, it's okay for me to
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:31)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (23:32)
also get that out of my head.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (23:34)
what I've loved so much about this podcast and was not necessarily expecting is the conversations I've had on my interview episodes. I learned so much. every time, just the being in community with that person, having the conversation, hearing their stories, reflecting with them on all sorts of different topics, all sorts of different people.
I have learned so much, and I'm a totally different person 30 episodes in than I was when I started. I want,
Matt Gilhooly (24:03)
Just wait till you get to 200.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:05)
I know I'm like, ooh, I'm so excited. how everyone can get that in their life, right? Like not everyone's gonna start a podcast or even wants to, not everyone has that kind of a community though, or that outlet.
I hope that people can find that, however, wherever it is, however it is for you. But the healing power of conversation and storytelling and community is absolutely real.
Matt Gilhooly (24:33)
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'd like to think that people are starting to open up a little bit more
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:39)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (24:40)
with each other and just like people in their lives. Maybe it's at the workplace, which 20 years ago was totally inappropriate. You shouldn't talk about your life besides how great your kid was at, you know, baseball or whatever it was.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (24:53)
You
Matt Gilhooly (24:55)
But I think people are building those communities a little bit more because they're not as afraid of being vulnerable.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:02)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (25:02)
because
I think a lot of people, you share something that's vulnerable and you get it out and people aren't like, you know, like, let me run. I think
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:11)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (25:14)
just encourages more. It's like a snowball effect,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:16)
what we've been talking about a lot on here is what if work is just something you do and you go home?
Matt Gilhooly (25:22)
It's hard.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:23)
What if you just, I know it's totally hard, but, not like don't interact with people or don't share with people, but it's the amount of energy that a lot of us have put into the workplace and those relationships as opposed to the relationships in our real life.
there's a tipping point, I think, that we have to be careful of.
Matt Gilhooly (25:48)
your work coworkers are not family. But I also don't necessarily buy into, it's just something I show up turning on my
Ellen Whitlock Baker (25:56)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (25:57)
work and cause you're at work a lot.
So like you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:01)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:02)
want to find a way where you can enjoy it. And maybe you don't enjoy the actual work that you're doing, but you enjoy the people that are around you or the
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:10)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:11)
common goals that you all are sharing. And that's, that's big for me because
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:16)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:17)
if I won a small lottery and didn't have to work, would I do
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:19)
Hehehehehe
Matt Gilhooly (26:22)
what I'm doing every day? No, I would do my podcast, but because that fills my
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:27)
cup.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:27)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:27)
And that's also
a help if you find like a hobby or something that, even though it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort, fills your cup and like really
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:33)
Yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (26:36)
serves your heart in the way that you need, then maybe work just becomes a way to afford to do the things that you
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:42)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (26:43)
like to do.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:44)
I wanna talk about filling your cup because I think that you made a huge point there.
Matt Gilhooly (26:50)
Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (26:50)
what would you say to people who haven't figured that out yet or who, you know, like if someone's just sitting here miserable in a job of which there are many, unfortunately, when did you sort of realize it was the cup filler that you needed?
Matt Gilhooly (27:03)
when the first times that I saw people talking about the show that I didn't prompt or didn't, like I
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:11)
wow.
Matt Gilhooly (27:12)
saw like a random blog article written about, maybe it wasn't a blog, but on like Medium, a person I didn't know found the show and wrote a whole thing about it
Like I just happened to see it.
that was really validating for me that like, okay, but then
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:26)
That's cool.
Matt Gilhooly (27:27)
also hearing from listeners behind the scenes, like in a DM, like
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (27:33)
when so-and-so said this about this really hard moment, it was the first time I heard someone else say my story. And you're like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:42)
Wow.
Matt Gilhooly (27:44)
like,
Okay, like you have to keep sharing these stories. I also had a guest who came on, talked about a topic that we were conditioned to not talk about for so long about her infertility and that journey to
Ellen Whitlock Baker (27:59)
wow.
Matt Gilhooly (27:59)
having children. And she eventually was able to have children, but she talked about like all the losses along the way and then the hard
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:07)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (28:08)
parts that like a lot of people are too uncomfortable to listen to. Like maybe someone wants to tell people,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:12)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (28:13)
but.
lot of people are not really great listeners. And what stemmed
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:16)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (28:17)
from that is telling her story for the first time on a podcast or just like in public, like some of her family didn't even know the struggle that she
Ellen Whitlock Baker (28:27)
Wow.
Matt Gilhooly (28:27)
had. It gave her the confidence to then go into the HR department at her company and advocate for both fertility treatment, like stipends or adoption.
stipends. And so now because she shared her story, someone listened, other people listened, told them told her their stories. She's now affected lives, for the future on from this company that is now helping to support families and building families. And so you're like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:01)
How amazing.
Matt Gilhooly (29:02)
that to me was like a win wasn't a win for the podcast wasn't a win for me was a win for her because she
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:10)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (29:10)
finally felt comfortable enough to share that story.
there's nothing in my life that has been as fulfilling as this journey. to stem to your question of like, what do people do? I think you keep trying things. You keep trying the things
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:24)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (29:24)
that spark you. So for me, started trying to process the grief, losing my mom, I started writing. So I just write like,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:31)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (29:32)
they were really damn depressing. But,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:37)
yeah.
Matt Gilhooly (29:36)
it helped. got it out of my head.
I put it down. I hadn't like figured out therapy yet. But that was like my first like dipping
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:41)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (29:42)
my toe in the waters of like, what is my what what are my feelings? And then I was like, Okay, this isn't serving me. I can't because
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:44)
It's powerful writing. What are feelings?
Matt Gilhooly (29:51)
I didn't I wasn't allowed to have them in my own mind. I'm sure my dad would
Ellen Whitlock Baker (29:53)
Yeah, no, it's very real.
Matt Gilhooly (29:55)
have supported me having feelings. But it just felt like the time period is like early 90s people. It's not something people talked about. So
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:04)
Mm-mm.
Matt Gilhooly (30:05)
It went from writing to then digital art. So then I was like, okay, I can express myself through digital art. I can draw pictures of people's dogs and I can make cartoons. And then I started during the pandemic, I was like, how do we make people smile? Because everyone was really scared at the beginning, right? And so I
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:22)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (30:24)
was like, everyone send me pictures of your favorite picture of your dog and I'll put them in a little cartoon scene. And so I made like
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:29)
How cute!
Matt Gilhooly (30:31)
thousands of these little things that
they were only social media size so they could share it now I think I've published 13 coloring books on Amazon. So like trying little things
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:39)
No way! That's so fun!
Matt Gilhooly (30:42)
to find like, does this feel purposeful? Does it feel
Ellen Whitlock Baker (30:45)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (30:46)
aligned?
just
tried things and then the podcast fell in my lap and I was willing to be vulnerable with the world.
I think it's so important that when something sparks a little bit of curiosity in you, that you try it. Especially if
it's low stakes, like, what happens if you don't continue? Like, the world doesn't end.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:08)
one of my prior guests, Britt Frank, talks about the power of micro yeses. And
Matt Gilhooly (31:13)
Mm.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:13)
we talk about that a lot of it's just one tiny itty bitty step to something else. And I don't even say in the right direction because you don't know what direction you're going in yet. And she talks about breaking it down into like the most.
the tiniest steps ever. So like, if you want to start running after work, instead of saying, I'm going to run every day after work, the first step is like, I'm going to put my left shoe by the door today. And that's it, you know?
Matt Gilhooly (31:41)
Hmm. Yeah.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (31:42)
And I think that that's, that has been really powerful for me because as a perfectionist, as someone who's like, I have to get to this level, we're just, we're driven to this place of it has to be up here. And if you're not doing it up here, then it's not worth doing.
And that's so not true. And in fact, the beauty is in those little micro movements because you find out all sorts of things about yourself because you're actually stopping to observe how you're feeling
Matt Gilhooly (32:09)
Yeah. Well,
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:11)
about it.
Matt Gilhooly (32:12)
you can't get to like the third floor without walking up the steps.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:15)
I'm curious if you could have gotten there before you.
did that writing before you did some of the releasing of the grief and that tightly held perfectionism. Yeah,
Matt Gilhooly (32:28)
No.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:28)
so you have to unlock it somehow.
Matt Gilhooly (32:31)
I don't think I could have started with a podcast. I don't think I could have
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:34)
Mm-mm.
Matt Gilhooly (32:34)
started with the digital art. And it was just me
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:37)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Gilhooly (32:38)
like, this feels okay. It doesn't feel right yet. And it was just like, I'm trying to navigate my way through what feels fully aligned. And it does.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (32:51)
Matt, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really, really appreciate it. This is a great conversation. And where can people find you?
Matt Gilhooly (32:59)
think the best way is go to thelifeshiftpodcast.com and every link is on there. I'm on the socials, the Life Shift podcast. And I'm open to hearing from everyone and anyone. think it's just how lucky am I to get to share these stories. So thank you for having me.
Ellen Whitlock Baker (33:18)
For sure.
I'm so delighted. We'll put all the links in the show notes and definitely check out the LiveShift podcast. Just listening to it is a really nice part of your day. So highly recommend. All right, Matt. Well, thank you. And thanks, everyone, for listening. And we will see you next time.
Matt Gilhooly (33:36)
Thanks.
